German Shepherd Dog > let's compare something (30 replies)
let's compare something
by GSDNewbie on 18 October 2011 - 19:57
All I ever read about from many here are the lacking deficiency of the sl work ability and how wl do not do well in the ring. Here are some thoughts I have held a long time on this line controversy.
They are not apples and oranges... more like juice oranges and navel oranges. What are the life differences of these two types of the same breed? Juice oranges are all about the core of the fruit like the wl is about the core only... It's work ability. Navel oranges have to be tasty and have the appeal to make someone see it's beauty and say I want to taste that and see if it is just as good inside as outside.
The life of the wl that most own that object publicly to sl dogs is drive, drive, drive oh and we need drive to hit the sleeve flashier and harder. Does not matter much about the rind or the segments as long as it does it's task and brings home the sport titles. Start early so pup must be a serious drive with a gator snap and unshakable hard exterior. We breed them to get it done and look like a ninja doing it. Most spend their training time almost always with the person that will be in the sport ring with them and they have a tight bond from doing it together which in my opinion is awesome and a huge plus. I admire that let me at it work drive. I do not admire it in thousands of rescue dogs that have no handlers to use them in sport that are produced for those sport dogs selected from each litter. They do not make a fit into the typical American pet family as they have no tasks to preform and most pet owners just have zero clue beyond watching dog gurus on tv how to solve all their dog related issues or heaven forbid the local pet smart positive only trainers. They are bred for a purpose but even so why not care how they look as well? Why is that such an awful goal? I believe some of the ones that are bred with conformation in mind which are rare would do fantastic at dog shows and give the sl a run for the money if people properly took the time to train for it and not scoff the necessity of having to just get that SG. I appreciate the wl owners that strive for a V. I feel the sport wl is getting far displaced to what the wl in real jobs that was cherished used to be. It would be a shame to allow that overdrive sharpness that is in many wl these days to destroy the heart that has been loved all these years of the breed. We cannot loose that original flavor that made it the dog it is and loved by everyone from the pd to the sport enthusiast because they have changed to malinois because the new flashier wl gsd has become to unstable in public work for police departments or they are looking for an even easier, quicker, flashier hitting dog breed to train for the sleeve. If all the working jobs and all the sport enthusiasts start changing
by GSDNewbie on 18 October 2011 - 20:04
|like many have to a new breed, where will that leave your dogs? Tangerines will be the new flavor and the juice spoils on the trees.|
The life of the sl is far different. It is a shame so many good dogs do not get used to strengthen the generations all because of marketing or ego over the different types of sl emerging because every venues has a separate idea of what is beautiful and most of them are not utilizing the working heart of the breed. The proper show line is not what is judged fairly online. Most of the nay Sayers only see the ones on ads or only the ones shared for having a issue so that they can be laughed at. On the ads which I have noticed are becoming more and more a crate full of rejects instead of oranges for the store bin just because the people who know no better will pay great sums of money for them. If wl see all these terrible looking dogs being sold and for more than a good wl dog brings of course they are going to feel like they bit into a sour grapefruit. SL dogs have dual lives. They have to learn and campaign in the show ring which is a first job and have a second job of schutzhund or herding. If you only have one job that pays the bills you are fresh and better trained and have more time to devote to perfecting that one skill set. If it is only your second job and like the wl in conformation, they only do it because they have to it is going to present itself poorly just like the conformation performance of a wl who is not handled properly in preparation for it. As long as either poor showing in the bite work or the conformation is allowed on either side it will not improve. The sl brings more money in pet market for two reasons. It takes a great more bankroll to finish out a sl as only the top dogs are used by anyone hoping to make good sales and they are most time not always a more stable dog for pet industry. Personally, I would love to end pet industry on both lines and feel it would do wonders for the dogs. People do enjoy the golden orange look of the sl rind though I love the look of a nice bred wl just as much. Many sl are handled by so many people that I have found they shut down that part of them that only answers to one person really affecting that I will do anything for you and I trust you drive in bite work. The best dogs I have seen have had a "relationship" with the people handling them. I have based this sl description mainly on German working lines as the American just does not relate with most of my points described here as they do not do schutzhund. The sl is going to continue downward as long as it is based on how much they can market pups for, allowing poor work performance and breeding to a dog just because it has a VA, and squeezing out of any new competitors just because it may hurt large kennel operations profit line should they learn enough that they try their hand at breeding.
There are so many more points I have floating around in my mind but this is a start. I love the gsd and I do not see lines drawn amongst them in my heart. What I see are drifting continents that do not need to become separate governments and countries. My grammar has never been a strong point, but I do hope I have started some others thinking out there on these issues. We need to quit fighting amongst ourselves and saying eeewwwww you have a sl you can't train with us or conformation is stupid why must I have to train for the ring? Do it for our breed and not because we cant deal with it ourselves and our own prejudices. If you feel a sl sucks then offer to help train sl owners in sport, instead of writing them off and knocking them aside. If you feel a wl owner does not understand the show ring, take one of them along to a ring training or to a show and offer your help.
by starrchar on 18 October 2011 - 20:34
|Well, there is one thing for certain and that is that this topic will stir up a lot of controversy :). The truth is that I agree with you. It seems like both sides have become extreme in their vision. |
My last GSD was a SL dog. He was born in 1993 and he definitely could work (so I was told by the people at my club), but due to illness in the family I had to give up my much loved hobby of Schutzhund- never titled my dog. Many years ago I also had a WL dog that had very nice bone, color and structure and was an awesome all around dog, but he had severe hip dysplasia so I was never able to see what he was capable of doing. It sounds like things have changed a lot in the GSD world, but that is largely based on what I hear on this forum because I'm not actively involved in showing or sport. I have seen some gorgeous WL dogs and from what I hear there are still some SL dogs that can work, but it seems that it doesn't happen very often either way.
It would be wonderful if the WL and SL people could unify to produce the ultimate GSD, but that isn't likely to happen. i know there are some that are crossing WL with SL, but they are far and few between. People are people... JMO
by vonissk on 18 October 2011 - 22:05
|Newbie great post and I agree. Instead of sitting around bitching about this one or that one, we need to be trying to help each other and unite!!!!!|
by charity on 18 October 2011 - 23:54
|I agree with all 3 of you. Great post.|
I hope this starts constructive dialogue.
I was in a similar situation. Had a sl born in '94 who loved the work. He was not a show stopper in either wl or sl but he was good looking, loved to work and we had that bond that Ravi spoke of a few weeks ago. It WAS magical. We started in AKC obedience and were discovering Schutzhund when he was about 6 years old. He loved doing the obedience but when we started the bitework it was like someone lit his light.
Our time together was too short. He passed at 7 years from splenic Hemangiosarcoma. Then mucho family illness delayed any thought of trying again.....just beginning now to try and get back in the saddle.
Anyway.....don't mean to digress.
Just saying that I know it can be done if we can all meet in the middle and work toward that goal.
I like your last few lines Newbie.
"We need to quit fighting amongst ourselves and saying eeewwwww you have a sl you can't train with us or conformation is stupid why must I have to train for the ring? Do it for our breed and not because we cant deal with it ourselves and our own prejudices. If you feel a sl sucks then offer to help train sl owners in sport, instead of writing them off and knocking them aside. If you feel a wl owner does not understand the show ring, take one of them along to a ring training or to a show and offer your help."
by starrchar on 19 October 2011 - 02:21
I re-read my post and it sounds a bit negative, but that was not my intention. I'd love to see unity between the SL people and the WL people, and combine that with consistent, thorough health screenings, the GSD could be better than ever.
by Dog Bum on 19 October 2011 - 03:57
|To-may-toe, To-mah-toe! I've been addicted to the sport for 32 years. My late wife and I started with AKC show line dogs, involved with our dogs doing AKC obedience, show, and schutzhund. Eventually, we transitioned to SV dogs. I entered my AKC dog in the first sieger show held in America 1980; German Shepherd Dog Club of the United States! used SV rules. Dog was excused. My point. I've been around and seen alot. My observation: Sportfriends (that's how we old timers address ourselves) who have been in the game for awhile pay little attention to the W/L S/L crap. It's about the dog! The preferred term, by the way, is "Sport Dog" not working. It's generally the people with the least experience who perpetuate the WL/SL antagonism. Can't wait until somebody eventually shows up with a harlequin shepherd dog. Concerning the perceived trend to Malenois preference, I wonder how much economics influences the trend, if it indeed exists.|
Closing with a quote from the late Gernot Riedel asnwering a question about his preference: "The good looking dogs don't cost any more than the ugly ones."
by vonissk on 19 October 2011 - 04:18
|Starr I don't think you sounded negative at all. If expressing your opinion is negative then for a happy person I'm pretty negative.................LOL...........But here is what I want to put in now. Everyone has commented on the show/working line split but noone has said anything about the American dogs. Whatever class you put them in -hate, don't hate--they are still GSDs and came from the same lines as all the rest--even if it was 100 yrs. ago. I love every kind of GSD, from all countries for I am for the individual dog. I would like nothing more than to have a big world conference and take the best dogs of the best and mix them together and go back to what I think the gsd was meant to be before this group over here tweaked a while, and these over here did the same and it seems this is where we ended up. I believe in the golden middle myself.............dogs that can work on the farm during the week, go to ScH training Sat and then on Sunday go in the show ring and looking good all the way. And I don't literally mean work on the farm. whatever job they have--K9,SAR, Guide dog etc etc. I personally believe that shows and competitions would be more fair. When you got that ribbon or trophy or certificate you could be proud--it would really mean something--politics played no part and other than handling ability--I believe the PERSON on the end of the lead would not have to be mr big name handler. If the dogs were more equally balanced but yet individual dogs, not robots. I know you guys are probably shaking your head but hey it's JMO along with my 2 cents...............................|
by vonissk on 19 October 2011 - 04:20
|Hey Dog Bum, great post!!!!!!!|
by Siantha on 19 October 2011 - 04:43
|i would LOVE for everyone to get along and just enjoy working our dogs. weather you perfer the black and reds or the black and browns the blacks the bi's or the sables. ITS ALL THE SAME BREED registered under the same name. ok yes we people have turned them into what they where not intended to be a german shepherd should beable to work accourding to max if it cannot work it is no longer a german shepherd. that goes for working and show and sport dogs. i have seen and worked with some amazing looking show lines who are also very good in schutzhund and some who have no drives for it at all and are stunning in conformation and some who are unhealthy geneticly. and i have worked with some amazing wl/sport dogs who can work till they die and have terrable conformation or manners XD and some that have no drive and such. i think people should strive to get a top conformation rateing on ALL their dogs and work the dogs agility/sar/narcotics/LE/schh/hearding something i see too many dogs being bred who cant do 2 of these yet i think shepherds should be able to do any of these and still come home and live a good life with a family. yes i have working/sport dogs but i still will say wow at a sl who can work and get good rateings and no i dont look at sl titles i wanna see the dog work i have seen many a dog who has a schh3 title and dosent know what a sack is but there is only so much people who truely care about the breed can do because the public will do what they want and it will probably never change. but i am striveing to make a difference in my own little way.|
by Pirates Lair on 19 October 2011 - 05:05
"Never underestimate the power of a small group of people to change the world. In fact, it is the only way it ever has."
by Blitzen on 19 October 2011 - 12:22
|As fas as I know there is only one Am bred AKC champion with a Sch3, KKL1, CDX, and various agility titles. He was bred, trained, handled by Helen Gleason. Helen has trained and handled at least 3 Sch3 (2 females), 2 Sch2, 2 IPO3, a UDT, a UD,2-3 CDX's many, many agility titles, herding, you name it. She does it all herself. Has exhibited a female at the Sieger (half sister to Ando v AltenbergerLand) that received a standing ovation from the gallery fo rher bitework and went on to place V89 without ever having been campaigned in Germany or anywhere else. She breeds always for that elusive golden middle.|
Her AKC Sch3 champion is out of an ASL sire and a GSL Sch3 dam. ASL breeders for the most part are either not interested in Sch (don't want to train their dogs to bite, misunderstand the intent of Sch) OR they are not able to find a club to train with where SL's are welcome. Also there are not many, if any, pro trainers willing to take on ASL. Their bread and butter are the people who import or buy dogs and for whatever reason do not train them themselves. ASL people are more hands-on and wouldn't be too inclined to send their dogs to Germany for titles.
BTW, our training club in the Tampa Bay area welcomes ALL dogs to OB and protection training. Anyone wanting any information can pm me here. We have SL's WL's, combos of both like my dog, presos, rotties, dane, even a wolf hybrid. Some already titled, some working on getting it done.
by charity on 19 October 2011 - 15:47
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this:
"It's generally the people with the least experience who perpetuate the WL/SL antagonism."
You can't deny thererYou can't deny that t Yyy
Now this is just my opinion but I think a lot of very experienced people post on this site I do not get the impression that most are perpetuating the antagonism.
I think many are serious about it and in bemoaning the obvious are merely trying to start a dialogue that will, hopefully, lead to an understanding which in turn may lead to a resolution. That being what Starrchar, Newbie and vonissk are saying; a Golden Middle.
You can't deny that there is a difference. Since we can see the physical differences, are you saying there exists WL that won't do bite work as well? And I use the term WL to encompass those that are K9, SAR, guide dogs, herding. Being the wife of a K9 officer I just want my 2 guys to come home at night. It's about more than points on a field. I love Schutzhund also and I like lotsa of points but there is more to it in my world than that.
We've had 1 working line dog and 2 showline dogs who were K9. Not all dogs, in my expereince, are fit for working dogs. I've had a few showline Sch II dogs that would not cut it as a police working dog. There are many jobs in K9 work that is not covered in Schutzhund such as crowd control and building searches for example.
Some Schutzhund dogs just don't get it.
"economis influences" and politics go hand in hand in my opinion. It doesn't matter if you are talking dogs or teacups. But I think that may be whole other post.
good post Siantha, I didn't see it while I was typing mine.
Dog Bum I agree it is all about the dog
by charity on 19 October 2011 - 16:02
This was Tony's second K9. He was an awesome boy in every sense of the word.
This photo was done (1 in a series of about 8) by the photographer as an exhibit for a local festival. the second photo is Lobo and my 2 year old granddaughter. Lobo passed away October 8, 2011 at 14 1/2 years of age.
by Blitzen on 19 October 2011 - 16:32
Wonderful photos and good information from someone who knows what it takes to make a K-9 dog. Adorable child, beautiful dog. 14 1/2 years is a very long life for a GSD. I haven't been able to get one much past 10.
by charity on 19 October 2011 - 16:40
We will be grieving Lobo for a long time. He was a detector dog (explosives) as well as a patrol dog. The secret service and ATF were in town ahead of George W during the last presidential campaign, individuals from both agencies were impressed by his methodical work. They both wanted to load him up in their vehicles......uhhh. No.
Kudos to you for your post as well, I just finished reading it....I wish I lived in Tampa especially this time of year!
by Blitzen on 19 October 2011 - 16:57
|I wish you lived here too, Charity. We also have a great area training faclity that offers classes like nose work, dancing, flyball, dock diving. There are so many more dog people here than where I lived in PA. |
I know you are still grieving this wonderful dog who served so well. October 8th must seem like just yesterday.
Many with GSD's accomplish so much that is never credited to their efforts. They prefer to keep a low profile and remain under the radar. Every now they deserve to be ratted out LOL.
by GSDNewbie on 19 October 2011 - 17:08
|I am sorry I have not replied as I have not been on the computer lol life is busy. All of these replies are fantastic. I worked dogs in SAR and other WORKING venues and I have conformation shown, I am just now working on the sport aspect for titleing. I have worked with a sch group years ago when I was sar but we were not allowed to train our dogs bitework though I did help the other members with their dogs bitework training. I would have been in sport earlier than this if the last state I lived in for the last 8 years had clubs that were not anti sl. So much time wasted but my dog then ended up with medical conditions anyhow even though the experience would never have been a waste. I just get frustrated with wl downing sl work but they do not want to see them in their clubs to help them get better. Perhaps we can make a list of clubs that are sl friendly to start off with? Give people options to better learn how to do better in this sport? I expect only the best from my dogs and select them for work drive even though they are sl. I want to see more top quality wl in the conformation ring bumping up the bite work expectations at the shows and raising the bar. The only way any of this can improve is to meet in the middle, that is, unless people are just looking for something to pick at and the breed is not really their top priority.|
by charity on 19 October 2011 - 18:55
|Well Newbie glad to see you're back!|
You got us into this mess!
Just kidding...I am enjoying this post....good therapy I guess.
I get tired of people downing people. period. My bottom line is I wish we could all work together and enjoy each others company and enjoy our dogs. Our time with them is way too short.
I know what you mean about the wl vs. sl. I've seen a little of that locally. And then there is the training director at a club south of me who is more driven to work her dogs than anyone else's. She doesn't seem to have the patience to coach newcomers or dogs with a training issue. It doesn't matter if their wl or sl. She has her own agenda.
The Buffalo Schutzhund club is really good. They have members with wl/sl GSDs, Rotties, and other breeds. The training director is very personable and willing to help everyone. The problem for me is they are a UScA club and I belong to WDA. hmmmm.....
I am blessed because I have an open invitation to K9 training. I go when I am able and they are a great bunch of people who have taught me a lot. Not exactly a club atmosphere though!
Blitzen, I am in PA also so I know what you mean. I have thought about starting a club here but I'm not sure how to go about it. I know there are requirements for insurance and such and also just seeing if there is enough local interest.
Your club is exactly what I'm talking about! I love the videos on youtube of dog dancing.
If I'm in town (my son lives in Tampa) maybe I could visit the club??????
by GSDNewbie on 19 October 2011 - 19:44
|Yes, the other major issue I have on my mind... I am UScA and live on east coast where it seems there is much more WDA activities as well as some upcoming shows I want to enter that are WDA. The 8 years in a state of anti sl attitude was PA, south central to be exact. The attitude about dogs there is dismal to begin with. To the people there the only thing about dogs is the money to be made off them it seemed. I hated trying to enjoy my dogs in PA.|
I guess I am either going to have to switch to WDA or find another way around the issue. I would have signed up for NASS had this not been an issue. Both are loosing out competitors making them choose IMO. Someone who is more knowledgable on these issues should begin a thread to help us please?