German Shepherd Dog > Schutzhund "full calm hard bite" (no fight?) (76 replies)
by Duderino on 04 October 2011 - 05:59
|Please explain what you feel is good about that last video?|
by Felloffher on 04 October 2011 - 06:12
I like the dog, he's a nut job. Sure he had a shallow grip on some of the bites, he didn't out very well and he can't control himself in drive. The dog would be a challange, but did you see his speed on the long bite? He managed to find another gear when I thought he was already running full out. Dogs like that break the cookie cutter routine that we normaly see in Sch. and that's part of it for me.
by minro on 04 October 2011 - 06:29
|Intersting thread. I agree with tenmon.|
While I don't think all dogs that fight the decoy are nervy, I do think many people misjudge nervy-ness as "fighting the helper". Countering shouldn't be involved in this question - imo that's obviously something a dog should naturally do. However, chewiness/re-gripping multiple times/shaking the "prey" (decoy) about wildly are not desired (at least not in my dogs)
IMO, a dog should be calm on the bite -- it's a sign of sureness about themselves. It's also been my experience that dogs who thrash about like crazy on the bite or are trying to fight the decoy aren't clearheaded while they're working. Just my thoughts.
by Duderino on 04 October 2011 - 07:03
|Here's what I saw.|
Santa Claus was judging a dog that had control problems, short, chewy grips and a handler who is somewhat afraid him. In the blind the dog bumped the sleeve and bothered the helper half a dozen times. Dog leaves basic position and circles handler multiple times which to me, represents a nerve issue. If you notice the handler when he is around the dog, he moves very slowly and his hand movements to ask the helper to step back are very slow and close to the vest. I'm guessing he was bit before. Dog re-gripped after the out from the back transport grip and bumped the helper 9 x's!! First side transport the dog never took basic position and the video never shows the dog heel away for the long bite, probably had some difficulty getting him away from the helper. If you look at the long bite again, at 3:48 the dog does collect itself just a bit, it is slight but he does do it. He takes 4 secs to out after the command and bumps the helper 10 x's after the out. Dog has difficulty taking the side position between helper and handler. All these are deductions and should have been scored. At best this performance should probably have been in the 70's, I don't know why the judge allowed all of the bumping and bothering the helper without taking points but it must have been his lucky day.
If you watch the dog's obedience, he probably got crucified for his heeling. You can see the nerves of the dog exposed during the heeling and the chewing of the dumbbell. IMO, not a strong dog but a dog with suspect nerves and because of that, has trouble containing itself.
by duke1965 on 04 October 2011 - 08:20
partially agree with duderino on this , dog is not under control , like to see this dog when it is set straight by good handler , because most people forget that biggest pressure on a dog in schh is not from decoy but from handler , that is if you want to score high point and not bring performance like this dog
the question about grips is really easy to answer , in different sports there are different requirements to score the highest points in biting , so people breed and select on dogs based on what they need to score points , for schh that would be full and calm preybite , for ring and KNPV they want a dog to push while biting , I have two dogs in IPO now that push , and that will cost points , but its a quality I like , so I wont go for the happy preydogs that grip and hang , but thats a choice
by Felloffher on 04 October 2011 - 08:27
I think the slow pace during heeling is to keep the dog from forging too far ahead which probably leads to the dog taking off after the decoy. I wonder if it's poor nerves or just a dog that overloads in drive? Or is overloading in drive poor nerve? The dog didn't lack courage in the work and he was obviously giving it his all. It's a constant power struggle with a dog like this when they're in drive. They become oblivious to corrections, satifing their own needs becomes more important then commands from the handler. Heavy compulsion doesn't help, it makes thing worse and the dog becomes more hetic. It's a balancing act to have control without handler conflict. I think part of what we see is a dog that's been cranked on pretty hard to gain control. Just my thoughts.
by darylehret on 04 October 2011 - 11:35
|Pretty sad, that it has become so twisted. Even the highest officials in the SV probably couldn't answer this one correctly, since even among them, so little is known about the SHEPHERD dog.|
by Duderino on 04 October 2011 - 12:15
|The obedience I was referring to in my second paragraph was his "B" phase obedience, one of the other videos available when you click on the link, not the secondary work . If you watch the video, the dog is excessively crowding the handler and the posture is very nervous almost as if afraid to make a mistake or get out of position. The tail wagging is more out of nervous excitement rather than enjoyment, same with the head position. I'll grant him the slow heeling on the setup for the escape but his hand movements around the dog when he is "attempting" to shut him down are especially guarded.|
by Koach on 04 October 2011 - 14:32
That is one of the reasons why I started this thread. I love the GSD and what the complete package is suppose to be for all types work and vocations from companion to the most complex of canine work.
For the last 30 years I have seen the GSD, for all the reasons we already know, (show line, too popular, poor and lenient testing methods, more expensive, health problems, etc.) go from the status of "the dog" to presently becoming a "second fiddle" to another breed in the eyes of many.
That other breed's original sports/testing venues for bitework and control in bitework require a much greater demonstration of hardness, fighting desire and OB under stress. If we were only able to raise the standards and requirements of working stress to test the GSD we would be back in business as far as evaluating our dogs is concerned.
If I were a breeder of working shepherds I would most likely consider breeding to stud dogs from the various ring sports and KNPV rather that go to a SchH performer unless of course the schutzhund dog’s references were very reliable and that the genotype fit that of my female. I understand that people want "pink papers", etc. but I think that now the time has come to get over this hurdle and be proactive. Most GSD’s in the ring sports can be traced back to the same bloodlines as the top SchH performers however a couple of generations of positive ringsport results can be more selective and reassuring.
by Felloffher on 04 October 2011 - 16:06
I think there are good studs to be found with Sch. titles, it's just a matter of selecting a dog with the particular traits you are looking for. I very much agree with you about ringsport being a better test of a dog. But, I think by breeding GSD's for performance in ring, we are the same slippery slope as dogs bred for performance in Sch. I don't have extensive experience with Malinois, but there is a distinct difference between French lines bred for ring and Belgian or even KNPV lines. From the limited exposure I've had to French lines, I can see that drive in some of the dogs masks what I consider temperament faults. They perform well in drive, but have suspect nerves when they're are not working or are away from the field. I'm not painting all French Mal's with the same brush, but these are some of my observations from the dogs I've seen (I have also seen some outstanding Mal's from these lines).
I wonder if breeding GSD's for one specific venue be it SAR, sport or police has a negative impact on the breed? It may be idealistic, but breeding for the magic balance in temperament and drive will always produce pups in a litter that will be suitable for different jobs. Not the consistency that someone looking to place dogs high in sport is looking for, but still a versatile working dog.
by darylehret on 04 October 2011 - 16:14
|A little thrashing around might demonstrate good fight drive on a police dog, but not something I'd want have done to my sheep.|
by Working GSDs on 04 October 2011 - 16:53
|Daryl if there were that many people using GSDs for herding that could be a point, but I don't think that is the case anymore.|
Koach, I think the GSD is faced with a problem of popularity amongst people that don't do sport or any other work with the dogs therefor the goal of maintaining the ''working traits'' is not present. Too many people get involved in breeding dogs that should never be bred in the first place.
The breeders are all over the board as far as selecting criteria for breeding GSD, just look at some of the adds: large dogs,big heads,color,or just country of origin (Czech dogs being an example).
How many breeders actually say, my dogs are bred to be athletic (scale a palisade, do a long jum),have energy to do a complete Ring 3 routine (45 minutes non stop) etc?
Luckily some breeders are still interested in putting out a good product, the problem they face is finding working homes for these dogs.
Ok, time to get off my soap box!
by darylehret on 04 October 2011 - 17:35
|Since there aren't many people using GSDs for ANY work, what's really the point of breeding for anything but color and size? The question was answered; because it fit the work of the time. Full and calm bites are not necessary for manstopping.|
by Slamdunc on 04 October 2011 - 18:24
|Tenmon, please tell me you are joking about that live prey and comparing SChH to killing prey. ROTFLMAO. That was hysterical. Please that lion analogy is ridiculous. I could easily explain the fundamentals of a calm grip but I won't. My sides hurt too much from laughing so hard.|
by sueincc on 04 October 2011 - 19:51
|Hey Slam I have an analogy too. Did you ever hear the one about the blind men trying to describe the elephant? Only in this case I don't think anyone even touched the elephant they just heard about it over the Internet!!!!!|
by tenmon on 04 October 2011 - 20:37
|Slam and Sueincc I'm not trying to get personal here. Please take a step back from laughing so much. I get those once in awhile. The thread has jumped from calm full grip, aggression, obedience to breeding, with everyone all over the place posting thier thoughts, as constructive as they can. Besides your both comments, you have added nothing to the thread. I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject if you can pull yourselves from laughing so much. Please be aware that talking about the "fundementals of a full grip, is totally different than the reasons why. the anology was just that. It was referenced as to regards to prey, one of the primary instinct for survival, with the other being defense. They anology could easily have gone both ways. I can teach you the fundementals of throwing a proper punch, but the reason for throwing the punch using those fundementals are vastly different. Sorry if my anonogy was not close to your(s) vast experiences, but I would love to hear your thoughts. No disrespect here.|
by VomMarischal on 04 October 2011 - 20:47
|I'm confused. Is Tenmon saying they SHOULD be talking about the whys, or should NOT be?|
by tenmon on 04 October 2011 - 21:06
|Don't want to do that. Maybe I'm confused. I was just trying to bring an anology( a likeness for what its worth) for the reason the full grip was important as depicted by the schutzhund rule, as it relays to a prey, just from a pictorial perspective. Nothing more. Of course when you look at it from a defensive perspective it is different. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth!|
by beetree on 04 October 2011 - 22:04
Well, what is schutzhund supposed to be similating? I thought it was a choreograph of the apprehension of a person as a tool for determining breed worthiness? So I don't think the prey analogy did much to promote that. But we know I'm just as confused as they come.
by Slamdunc on 04 October 2011 - 22:50
|A full calm grip is genetic. Grips can be enhanced by good training or lessened by bad training. However, a dog with a natural full calm grip is genetic. Dogs with full, HARD CRUSHING grips are genetic and want to fight and have strong nerves. The point of judging the grip in SchH is that you get a look into the dog's mind and soul through the grip. If you are able to read dogs you will see an awful lot by watching and judging the grip. The grip whether full and calm, shallow, or chewy tells you something about the dog. Full grips are desired because when rating a dog for a SchH trial which is a scored event; grips are one way to score dogs. Full grips generally show a more confident, self assured dog who is not concerned or afraid of the decoy. Taken away from a SchH trial when I test dogs for Police work I rate the grips that is one criteria I look for. I do not care if the dog bites a bad guy with a full or shallow grip, actually shallow grips hurt more and the dog has to bite harder to hold on. But, full grips rate higher when testing because of what the grips tell me the dog is thinking and feeling in the confrontation. Full grips are desirable and show the level of commitment in the dog, whether they are sport dogs or real working K-9's. Dogs overloaded in defense do not usually bite full. If anyone thinks a good SchH dog is not fighting the decoy on the escape or drive has obviously never done helper work with a good dog. I really do not want to go into detail on this here. Suffice it to say that dogs with full, calm crushing grips are largely genetic based and very desirable. |