German Shepherd Dog > Schutzhund "full calm hard bite" (no fight?) (76 replies)
Schutzhund "full calm hard bite" (no fight?)
by Koach on 03 October 2011 - 19:16
|I know I’ll get a lot of flak for this posting but I did so with the intent that I can hear the opinions of those of you who are much more knowledgeable that I.|
So the rules in Schutzhund call for “ a full calm hard grip that prevents the helper from escaping”, nothing more.
When I look at videos of today’s best that is what I see. A dog hitting the sleeve with lots of speed/flash and that “full calm hard(?) bite” followed by the dog either running along with the helper, actually seeming to cooperate, with a beautiful side step on the escape or with a dexterous back step on the attacks. Nowhere do I see any effort on the part of the dogs to resist what the decoy is dictating. Looks more like a dance than a “fight”. The resistance is so little that the helper, on the escape, can sometimes actually pick up speed with the dog in full bite. Is it genetics telling the dog to hold on and that eventually that little bad sheep will tire and slow down and stop trying to run away or have we bred the “fighting drive(?) or whatever it should be called) out of these dogs”. The decoys don’t seem to be really challenged. Anybody who has seen a 75 lbs dog wrap his hind legs around a helper knows what I’m talking about. I’ve seen GSD’s completely lift their hind legs off the ground and the helpers take a nose plant or come into the helper and hit him hard with both front feet while getting a simultaneous bite on the sleeve. Today’s competition decoys can maintain a perfect posture during the whole routine. When is the last time you’ve seen a competition decoy have to get help from his other arm to keep the sleeve parallel to the ground? Should the dog not want to possess the sleeve, fight for it, claim for his own. What good is there in tasting of the fur of the prey but not getting to tastes it’s meat.
Take a look at the best ring sport dogs (gsd included) and look at the fight in these dogs. Is Schutzhund stifling the dogs with their rules? Seems in Schutzhund we call the dogs off to early to see if there is any fight in the dog.
by KellyJ on 03 October 2011 - 19:27
To me, this is an awesome example of a great grip!
by Koach on 03 October 2011 - 19:45
|Thanks for your reply Kelly.|
Does this mean that "it's all about the grip" and nothing more?
by KellyJ on 03 October 2011 - 19:57
Im am not sure about whats desired from the grip in schutzhund. I have often wondered the same question you asked. Why is it so different than other sports?
It seems like they encourage the dog to be calm on the bite rather than fight the helper...Like here...
And in KNPV they encourage to bite very deep and fight.
by Koach on 03 October 2011 - 20:05
|Thanks again Kelly.|
I'll check those vids out tonight when I have access to broad band internet.
by KellyJ on 03 October 2011 - 20:16
|Could someone answer what is the definition of a "calm" grip in schutzhund?|
Does it mean...no head thrashing, no relasing, no shifting or trying to bite deeper?
by tenmon on 03 October 2011 - 21:12
|The original shutzhund program was initially designed to evaluate the dogs for certain characteristics. Of which, in the protection phase, the calm grip was to emulate the final death grip of a prey. Since the schutzhund evaluation can not include live "prey" in this situation, the next closest was to design the routine to do this. Picture a lioness hunting a prey on the african plains. Upon grabbing the throat of the animal, you will notice no thrashing about from the lioness. A calm grip squeezing and holding as the prey prances and run eventually giving way to the lack of oxygen. As they prey is brought down, the lioness is calm, full grip around the throat until it's time to release the prey, which is now dead. That, in my opinion, is what the whole issue is about. The thrashing about, can only come from a lack of strong nerve at this point.|
by GSDguy08 on 03 October 2011 - 21:32
|Interesting thoughts tenmon. With large prey I've seen them hold to kill, and wolves do the same as well. Though with small prey, I've seen videos of wolves, and even my own pack of Huskies take hold of the neck, shake and kill instantly. I'm referring to things that have gotten into our fenced in/gated yard like rabbits, cats, squirrels, chipmunks, racoons, etc. I notice that in play, my guys teach what I've seen wolf packs do in taking down large prey and then killing it. Just like taking down elk, large deer, or other decent sized animals......with wolves they tend to bite at the body or back legs, many times holding on to the back legs, rendering the animals back end useless causing it to fall....or if it doesn't cause it to fall, another member bites another area. My pack does this in play, Little Dude will grab ahold of Sierra's back leg, Buck will get the tail or other back leg, and then when she falls, one will grab ahold of her throat and hold....all in play of course. It's interesting to watch.|
by Koach on 03 October 2011 - 21:38
|Temon, thanks for your reply.|
That does seem to be the classic explanation but what about a smaller predator (wolf) and a larger (moose) prey. Is not the "full calm bite" the first so called "submission bite", the drag down and "prevent further fleeing bite". What happens when the prey decides try to "escape" or even "fight back". If the predator then shakes the prey to try to break a neck or re-counters his bite in order to get a better grip on the spine in order to crush it. Is this a sign of poor nerves?
Are Ringsport dog continually recountering because of bad nerves. I don't think so. Some strong ring dogs will re-counter until they feel bone (decoy's bone that is) and then crush.
Some older schH vids of top dogs show, what seems to be full hard bites, but with a lot of body action and resistance. I'm not trying to be argumentive I just want to learn.
by GSDguy08 on 03 October 2011 - 21:44
Check that out Koach
by tenmon on 03 October 2011 - 21:48
|I think it depends on the size of the prey. The death grip/ calm full grip is applied more to a larger prey, in my opinion. Where a smaller prey prey is involved, they are quicker to get loose and because there is nothing much to wrap their legs around then the quick shake is to snap the neck or to kill at this time. Chomping at the ankles is not a death kill, it is to bring the prey down.|
by GSDguy08 on 03 October 2011 - 21:50
|Koach remember, wolves hunt in large packs as well and will bite it from different points until it goes down or is too weak to fight anymore. They pick on the weak and the young many times because they are easier targets. A wolf isn't always going to shake and kill on a large animals neck (it's not always possible), they may continue to bite into it, but the fact is.....once the animal is down, he is typically too weak to continue a fight with a pack of wolves......a pack of sometimes 10 or even more who come on the fight. Read my comment on my post before the video. With small prey, wolves, even my pack of Huskies will grab the neck and shake and kill it instantly. It's an easy kill and doesn't require a full pack many times. I've seen my pack hunt in a very strategic way.......one of them saw the rabbit.....another one went behind trees and started to run towards the house from the trees drawing it out, but leading it towards the house......and the others were just waiting for it. They use very clever tactics at times to try to hunt things...and this is just prey that gets in our yard.|
by Koach on 03 October 2011 - 22:06
|So what people here are saying is that SchH is more a test of the type of bite a GSD will use and does not considering the dog's capacity to fight or his love or willingness to fight.|
by Felloffher on 03 October 2011 - 22:11
|Why are we comparing the way a lion takes down prey or even a wolf? Natural selection dictates how wild predators behave and hunt. |
Dogs on the other hand have been selected and bred based on the requirements of man. I think it's horse crap that the idea of a dog with a full grip that is fighting a decoy automaticly has poor nerves. Dogs bred for high fight drive are in the fight to win, as shown in the videos Kelly posted. You see this in many police/military dogs or dogs competing in many other sport except Sch. The ideal for Sch. is the wet noodle with a full grip. This get high points, the dogs out easy, they are super high prey, easier to train and flashy. These dogs score well and thes traits are bred in hope of producing 100 point routines. Not all Sch. dogs are like this, but the ones that aren't don't score as well.
Koach is correct about Sch. looking like a dance, it's a precision sport based on points. The merits of this sport serve no other purpose outside of Sch. The protection work is nothing more than a game of tug, the tracking is useless in any other venue and the obedience is a waste of energy for a dog doing a real job. I have nothing against Sch., but producing dogs with the sole purpose of competing at high levels is a problem.
by Red Sable on 03 October 2011 - 22:45
Good post Felloffher
by tenmon on 03 October 2011 - 22:56
|Back up a bit Felloffer and calm down. The OP, I think, is asking for clarification on:...|
"the rules in Schutzhund call for “ a full calm hard grip that prevents the helper from escaping" and asking the why, the dance, etc. The lion anology was just that to make the explanation a bit clearer. The nerve issue comes into play as an off shoot to your explanation that the dogs competing are mainly bred to perform to get the 100 point. Prey drive dogs. However, since most of these dogs are a deravitive of "real working dogs", their genetics are telling them when they are biting that they should be biting, even though their nerves are not as strong. I don't know if I'm making sense here. if you listen to them and watch them closely, some gnaw on the sleeve ( because genetics are telling them to bite), but when the slightest of pressure is placed upon them, their nerves are not strong to accommodate the pressure and you will then hear the dogs. The nerves are being stretched, so they either start to shake, even with a full grip, small growling can be heard and lots of people take this to mean a dog fighting/aggression. Sometimes they are fighting and showing aggression. I'm not saying you do not have dogs in the sport that are hard, aggressive dogs. they do.
I agree with you on your post though. Schutzhund has become a sport and not what it was intended to be. So call working dogs! You wonder at this juncture if thel show dog people are any different than the so call working dog people. Different venue same thing. One is looking for a more fluent moving, proper anotomy, with prey drive dog, as oppose to on the other hand, working dog handlers primarily working their dogs in prey for points, calling it working. Who is right? I really hope I do not get crucified here!
There was a post sometime back on schutzhund vs personal protection dogs. Interesting post.
by alkster2002 on 03 October 2011 - 23:30
|The dog MUST NOT go up or down the sleeve ...... but what is important is that the dog MUST fight after the bite and not just "go along for the ride" ..... this will be critiqued quite heavily with the new rules in effect come Jan 1, 2012 ....... also the dog in the escape must show power in stopping the escape from happening. The dog can fight after the bite but MUST remain upon the bite portion of the sleeve with maintaining a full bite. Regards ... Greg|
by KellyJ on 04 October 2011 - 02:31
|I wouldnt say a dog that fights on the bite has weak nerves...|
I would think that its the complete opposite. Here is a dog that fights HARD. To me this is an example of a strong dog!
And my favorite dog :) Another strong & hard fighting dog!
Arent these examples of "good" nerves?
by Duderino on 04 October 2011 - 02:41
|What you are missing here is the definition of the "full, calm grip" and the will to stop the escape. Stopping the escape can be done with a short grip or a full grip, with a calm grip or a nervous grip. You are talking about 2 different parts of the escape bite. Stopping the escape has to do with the action of the dogs body and behavior, not just the grip.|
by jettasmom on 04 October 2011 - 03:48
Now this is a dog that shows how the escape is suppose to be. He is a serious dog and not out to take a walk with the helper. Very few like him out there.