German Shepherd Dog > can untained dogs really protect? (118 replies)
by duke1965 on 30 September 2011 - 07:34
|bruce lee analogy is nice but not in place as people react with rational thinking and dogs react on instinct ,flight or fight , no other options in reaction of threat|
if green dog is under threath he will make choice
training can make a dog stronger and some dogs will make different choice after training
I agree however that only few green dogs will protect you , and sportbreeding of today will bring that number down even more
by ronin on 30 September 2011 - 07:56
|This is very interesting, as a Police Officer of 24yrs I've investigated house burglaries where the showline or mutt has done an outstanding job, I mean serious fight at point of entry, continued in the house, inflicting substantial injuries, then cornering the subject for many hours prior to the family returning home. Likewise I can't remember how many GSDs and Rotts have also been stolen during other burglaries.|
I think it makes a big difference if the dog is on a lead, in the car or in house or garden.
Police Dogs are bred, imported, assessed then trained for 12 continuous weeks in the UK and its very common for them not to bite the subject on their first few conflicts, or the bite is not a committed one. I also train with the military, recently doing an exercise with a special forces malinois, 7yrs old, been back a week from Afghanistan, where god only knows what he had been doing; he missed a bite on an external metal staircase.
I had a rottweiler, that had a real dominant presence, totally passive dog, he would barely bite his dog biscuits, but his presence was incredible.
Can I state the obvious for PP dogs which are rarely tested; they don't know what the weapon hand is, they don't know what a knife or a gun is and how it can injure them, and they can't distinguish between a jogger and robber running towards them.
Its a romantic idea that there's someone out there thats got your back.
by ironshepherd on 30 September 2011 - 09:04
|An untrained dog can and will protect it's family. Of course there are exceptions. The Bruce lee and Jordan comparisons are ridiculous. If you really want to compare a dog to a human then think of it this way: would a human with no training in fighting protect his/her family? The answer is yes. You don't have to be an expert to protect your loved ones.|
by Red Sable on 30 September 2011 - 10:26
|The dog I am speaking of had no problem biting, he definitely would protect, without any training. He was tried a few times on a sleeve. Never trained on a sleeve, but had no problem biting it when he was shoved. Until he was shoved, he just ignored the man.|
We shouldn't have to train courage, maybe that is where we are screwing up with the sport dogs. We are breeding for flashy obedience. All dogs know how to bite already.
This dog I had was a dominant dog in every way, and his obedience was good, but not flashy. He thought he was near par with me when it came to rank, he did obey, but he wouldn't win any points for it, and that suited me fine. Definitely a dog of courage, had lots of prey, would search for a ball in a corn field all day till he found it, attacked the weedeater, lawnmower, even chain saw without fear.
I agree with Gustav, they are few and far between now.
by FlashBang on 30 September 2011 - 13:37
|My SL GSD (German) is protective of us (me, especially.) While he has never been in the position to physically attack someone to protect us, if someone is acting suspicious around us, or if someone is around our property late at night, you can be sure that there will be a large black and red GSD in full on "get out of here" mode. He has never had any sort of protection training whether that be just alerting or actual physical force. |
He also has been TT'ed by the ATTS, has his CGC, and is a herding dog so it's not "unstable nerves" or a "bad wired" dog acting aggressively.
by Emoore on 30 September 2011 - 13:49
|"Could an untrained,well bred wl gsd protect you?"|
I don't know if he could or not, but I have a very nice collection of firearms and I WILL protect him.
by GSDguy08 on 30 September 2011 - 14:36
|Will a husband who isn't trained to fight protect his family from an intruder? Or will he stand back and let the intruder harm his family just because he wasn't "trained" to defend? Does he need special martial arts training to do so? There was a "mutt" recently on the news here that obviously was not trained.....but protected the family from an intruder and did so very well at that. I can't go with the "michael jordan" idea on all of that. Sports are a totally different thing.|
by Felloffher on 30 September 2011 - 15:31
I would suggest that all the believers run a scenario at your home to test your dog if it's important to you. If you're not concerned I guess there's no harm in believing your dog will take care of things. However, I would not put that faith in my own dogs if they weren't trained.
by ronin on 30 September 2011 - 15:36
|The Husband has the potential to protect his family but it's subjective whether that individual has the mindset and capability.|
Again referring to my experience at work it's about 50/50 whether a person defends a partner or friend, and men are the worst offenders.
There are some very sad articles from WW2 concerning the Nazi's rounding up Jewish Families, and when it's a case of it's you or them (loved ones) the tragic reality faced with such an over whelming threat was it was each to his own, we revert to animal behavior in the most extreme circumstances!
When driving a safe car such as a Volvo you are increasing your likely hood of surviving a serious accident because of the design and build of the vehicle but it's not a guarantee. Likewise with a PP Dog, the breeding and training, with a bit of luck on the day will increase the probability of a positive outcome.
Of course you can lucky with a mutt, like you can get lucky falling off a motorbike.
by Donald Deluxe on 30 September 2011 - 16:11
|"My SL GSD (German) is protective of us (me, especially.) While he has never been in the position to physically attack someone to protect us, if someone is acting suspicious around us, or if someone is around our property late at night, you can be sure that there will be a large black and red GSD in full on "get out of here" mode. He has never had any sort of protection training whether that be just alerting or actual physical force. |
He also has been TT'ed by the ATTS, has his CGC, and is a herding dog so it's not "unstable nerves" or a "bad wired" dog acting aggressively."
And what's he going to do if I walk up to him and drive a size 11.5 steel-toed boot into his ribs? Fight or flight? You have no way of knowing, just as I don't with either of my two GSDs who have zero protection training. Barking at the gate is a far cry from serious combat with a larger, more powerful creature.
An untrained, unproven dog that barks and jumps around behind a fence is a deterrent and nothing more, and anyone who trusts such a dog to physically confront an aggressive human intruder without further evidence of what the dog will actually do is making a serious, perhaps life-threatening mistake.
by FlashBang on 30 September 2011 - 16:18
|Well, donald, as I stated my dog is not a trained protection dog; however, if you came close to attacking myself or my dog (who was barking trying to alert me to you,) you'd be met with my 1911 or one of my many other little friends. I never said my dog was a protection dog. My dog is a deterrent. My firearms (and my ability to use them more than effectively) are my protection.|
by Donald Deluxe on 30 September 2011 - 16:28
|You said he was "protective." If he's not a dog upon whom you rely for physical protection - which is what's being discussed here, not dogs that bark at strangers - then I don't understand what your initial post was about.|
by desert dog on 30 September 2011 - 17:04
As most my dogs have always been used for some type protection work, I wouldn't use the term " training" but giving the dog the opportunity to make bites on intruders. If the dogs don't have it in them you can't train it in them, to any degree of reliability even in cop dogs. I look for dogs that have the want to and have the heart for it, not just a dog that will do it because I want him to. Obedience is the training they need. Opportunity is their reward.
by hunger4justice on 30 September 2011 - 17:08
|Though I agree that a truly stable dominant GSD that would fight, not just bite, not just growl, in the face of an attack and not back down without training is rare, they do exist. I had one. I saw him during a carjacking and in the face of heightened aggression he brought it all to the table. There is not one doubt in my mind that he would have killed the carjacker or died trying. Fortunately, the jacker realized that too. Not one single doubt that dog would not back off or back down, in fact when faced with pain or pressure, he always, ALWAYS moved forward. Will I find another dog like that in my lifetime...I hope I have, but that I do not know. And as good as my dogs are now, I would not be surprised if I do not ever find it again. Of course the dogs I have now are being trained so whatever fight they have will be honed, and whatever confidence they have will be elevated, so guess I will never really know with my new boys how much was training and how much genetics. However, I did look for dogs that came from parents that already were street proven in life or death fights.|
by hunger4justice on 30 September 2011 - 17:16
|"Its a romantic idea that there's someone out there thats got your back."|
Ronin, I want to believe in romance. Never found it in a human male yet though. I always say the day I meet a man that has the loyalty, courage, heart and unselfish love that my GSD has is the day I might consider getting married again. AND then only MIGHT..lol
by Red Sable on 30 September 2011 - 17:25
|They don't exist hunger, your chances of finding a dog that will protect without training is much higher.|
by Two Moons on 30 September 2011 - 17:40
|Since this has gone way beyond the original question, (can untained dogs really protect?).|
I would say this to the majority of people who read it,
training a dog to attack is risky behavior and much liability follows.
In this day and age when dogs are being declared dangerous and attempts made to ban breeds I think this kind of training is more often counter productive and unnecessary for most people who own the larger breed dogs.
The answer to the original question is yes, but not always.
A lot depends on the relationship you have with your dog and I'm not talking any given breed.
The most important training is obedience so that in any situation you have control over your animal.
Attack or protection training is fine for the experienced individual but not for the majority out there who want a social animal.
As a point of fact, I have seen plenty of trained dogs turn tail and run from a serious fight.
If your life depends on it, I suggest you learn to protect yourself and consider your dog to be nothing more than notice.
I have more concern for the dogs than ego's.
by Slamdunc on 30 September 2011 - 18:02
|If your life depends on it, I suggest you learn to protect yourself and consider your dog to be nothing more than notice.|
How very true.
by todd6414 on 30 September 2011 - 20:46
Excellent thread!! I lot of great things said from what appears to be years of experience. If someone broke into my house my dogs would bark and be freaked out. I dont think they would charge and bite buy its possible. If they were cornered they would bite for sure, that I know. If anyone really wants to know have someone with a suite walk in your house and see what happens.
by Ibrahim on 30 September 2011 - 21:16
|The more I think of it the more complicated it becomes, here is how I analyze it:|
there is a difference between a dog defending itself when attacked personally and in this case the threat is clear to the dog, and a dog not threatened personally but its owner is and here the threat might be perceived by the dog and might not.
in relation to the topic:
Untrained dog is to perceive the threat to its owner first and only then it can make up its mind/ or just act on impulse (instinct) and step in and does defend the owner.
For untrained dog to step in and defend there should be strong bond with its owner.
To realise the difference between untrained and trained dog, here are some reasons why an untrained dog might fail to protect its owner:
1. dog does not perceive the threat.
2. dog does not have enough bond with owner.
3. dog does not think/know it is supposed to.
4. dog does not have enough courage.
5. dog does not see it has a chance to win.
Well proper training can teach/enhance a well bred dog on all above 5 points and make the chances of a dog to step in more probable.
For me I would love my dog to has it in him to protect me without training but it will not be my plan A for my personal protection.
If it were professionally trained to do PP and is tested, only then I may consider it my A plan for protection.