German Shepherd Dog > Is this a responsible breeder? Out of options. (54 replies)
by Smiley on 28 September 2011 - 17:49
|Where does it say Minro wants to replace her with a new puppy?|
I must have missed that comment. I read the breeder offered to replace the puppy...which shows they think it had a genetic basis. But, I feel they should have offered to take the dog back and try to rehome.
I disagree with the last poster and feel that the OP loves his dog and doesn't want to have her put to sleep but was shoping the breeder could take the dog back and rehome her as she must have lots of connections, puppy inquiries, etc. as a breeder. It sounds like Minro wants to give the dog a chance but has been unsuccessful rehoming her on his/her end.
Unfortuantely, Minro, putting her to sleep may be the only option. I waould be extremely hesitant in taking a puppy from the same breeder as there is proving to be a genetic link for severe allergies and gastric issues.
Try to keep your head up....
by Keith Grossman on 28 September 2011 - 17:50
|If she has to go badly enough and can't get to grass, Minro, she'll learn to go on the concrete; trust me.|
You might want to call Purdue. They're only a couple of hours down the road from you and could very well have either some clinical trials going on in which your dog could participate or some newer information/protocols to work with than your current allergist.
by Smiley on 28 September 2011 - 17:52
|Keith, that is a good idea! Minro, maybe you could contact them like Keith suggested...just to exhaust all your options.|
Hopefully, other people will offer some constructive help. I have not yet had to deal with this issue but maybe others who have dealt with severe allergies will repsond to give you some constructive information.
by crhuerta on 28 September 2011 - 19:26
|I have a simple question....|
Why is it "less" ethical for the breeder to *not* choose to expose another owner to the financial and emotional burden that this dog is already being returned for???
Since the OP has decided to possibly return the dog to it's breeder *because* of the problems associated with the dog's health...."hence, making it a financial & emotional burden on the current owner"....why is it such a horrific thought, that the breeder may choose euthanasia over a re-home??......why is it *then* acceptable for a different home to provide the financial and emotional burden to maintain the dog's health problems??
Seems like a double standard being sought out......"Do as I say...not as I do".
Since I have no idea who the breeder is...(and it's really no one's business)...this is just my personal opinion.
Allergies (especially environmental) can cause a life time of misery for an animal & it's owners.....and no breeder can honestly guarantee against them. I also do not think that a breeder is responsible to provide financial compensation in such ailments......I also believe that it is the breeder's "right" to euthanize, re-home or sell (etc)... any dog that is returned to them.....it is after all, at that time....their dog.
by Smiley on 28 September 2011 - 19:43
|Crhuerta, you make excellent points and I agree with some. But, all the OP was asking for was a chance for his dog to live. I think the breeder should take the dog back and "try" to rehome and if that fails than put the dog to sleep. But, you never know..maybe someone out there has dealt with this and is willing to take on the expense/risk or maybe someone lives in the desert and the dog could remain alive. I think the OP was just hoping that the breeder would be well connected enough to *possibly* be able to find the dog a home.|
Also, actually, they are finding a connection between severe allergies and genetics. I agree that some skin allergies and such can be environmental only. Unfortuantely, a new more severe allergy is emerging that seems to be genetic based and severe gastric issues have followed as well. These things have no test so there is no OFA database to track these problems. Most breeders just OFA hips and elbows..some may do cardiac and thyroid. However, I am just floored over the amount of german shepherds showing these kind of severe issues and the numbers are increasing. I think these issues were culled in the old days by breeders as there was no internet so breeders had to physically make the dogs visible. It was a small world and if a dog died from bloat at age 4 everyone knew it. Now, with internet, people purchase without seeing the actual breeding animals and it is easy to hide a severe allergy condition and nobody even asked about really bad gastric problems. For example, go on any forum and you will see post after post about gastric issues with people trying multiple foods for their animals and having no luck.
But back to topic...My gut feeling is that the OP does not have the heart to put the dog down and is hoping for a miracle that the breeder can somehow come up with a home for the dog. It's a very sad situation.
by Niesia on 28 September 2011 - 19:53
|As few people mentioned before – cheap dog food is the greatest source of allergies in dogs (both food and environmental). You cannot stick the breeder with the cost of curing something that the owner himself probably inflicted on their own dog. Especially since he’s got no control over the food his pup was fed and will be fed in the future.|
Allergies are not a genetic fault in a dog that is covered in the contract warranties. I’m surprised that the breeder offered another puppy. But I’m also surprised that the breeder didn’t accept the dog back.
A student I know, feeds her dog the cheapest dog food in the grocery store and she is surprised that her dog developed allergies… She cannot afford the vet and his bills, so she just let the dog suffer… What I cannot understand is that she has money for her Starbucks every day! If it was me, I would skip my morning coffee and buy better food for my dog.
My dog came with allergies as a pup and switching her food (to RAW) made them totally go away. (BTW – she had suspected environmental allergy to wood chips/wood bark and steroids were suggested by the vet. She also had chicken and rice allergy.)
In my contract I make it very clear that the feeding and resulting complications in the future are owner’s responsibility. I’ll take however any puppy/dog anytime and re-home it or put to sleep myself if nothing can be done for him/her.
I agree with those that suggested contacting local GSD rescue. They will be willing to help out, especially if you can keep the dog until it has a new home. There are people out there that will be happy to adopt purebred GSD especially with the papers and knowing that the dog comes straight from the previous owner.
A week ago I had one of my pups (5 month old now) given back to me because she had ‘extreme high drive’, she was ‘hyper’ and she wouldn’t stop chasing their cat and they were afraid of their cat’s safety. Their trainer supposedly suggested the shock collar as a last resort… The puppy came back skin and bones, totally untrained and she didn’t even look back on her previous owner. There is nothing wrong with her. In a week she gained her weight back and learned good puppy manners. She is energetic but there is nothing hyper or high drive about her. She’ll chase my cats if they run, lick them when they lay around. Totally normal GSD pup, that I will try to find a better home for.
SO There are always two sides to one story…
by crhuerta on 28 September 2011 - 20:01
|Actually.....I (as a breeder) was just in a similar situation.|
When a puppy owner & (great friend) just had a puppy show signs of possible allergies.
We required allergen tests done on the young dog.....the end result was environmental allergies/sensitivities. The environmental allergies were indigenous to this area....and there would never be a chance that he would not suffer from them at some time of the year.
*Not the life we (the owner & myself) wanted for the poor dog.* Since allergies is not something we have had much experience with in our particular dogs & breeding's. (THANK GOD)...we did seek other, outside advice and options.
The owner (wonderful person) actually through networking....found a home for him in CO.
That climate is perfect for this dog's particular allergies & sensitivities.
So yes...it can be done....BUT...if a home did not present itself in a specified matter of time....we (the owners & myself) did agree, that euthanasia was a possibility...no matter how upsetting it would be.
So....I can see both sides of the coin on this topic....
by BlackthornGSD on 28 September 2011 - 21:09
|Although vets are saying there is evidence of a genetic link in allergies, the problem is there is no DNA test and the parents may be completely free of any issues. So, is the development of allergies a genetic predisposition combined with an environmental influence--something that is set off by an attack on the dog's immune system from something completely unrelated, such as, say, a bad case of coccidia?|
So, if two unaffected dogs can produce a puppy with an allergy problem, how can a breeder guarantee the pup will have no allergy problems? The only thing to do is to screen breeding stock as best as possible and to avoid combinations that have proven to produce problems.
by sidhimelkel on 28 September 2011 - 21:17
|I would eliminate everything in this case. I would cease the poultry and steer clear of grains. Keep the dog off grass (going on concrete isn't the worse thing in the world - I could think of worse). In keeping the dog off grass and hopefully a fair distance from it, the dog should be pretty well clear of trees as well, which I've seen cause dogs a great deal of allergy irritations that do have allergies to grass. Don't use dyed plastic bowls or metal, I'd use a ceramic bowl. And I'd probably not have a collar on the dog either, you never know if the leather/nylon could be causing irritation either. Sounds extreme, did it before - allergies disappeared in 3 days. However, if you've invested over 5k in the dog and they still have yet to find a cause or medication for the dog, seems to me you're going to the wrong place. I have never had troubles with my vet finding the cause of my dogs issues..I'd probably take Keith's advice on this one and go elsewhere for treatment if all else has failed.|
by hexe on 28 September 2011 - 22:08
"I'm not expecting the breeder to pay for her. At all. I realize that's not their responsibility. But I DO think they should exhaust their efforts in finding someone who would want her."
minro, while I sympathize with your situation, for the life of me I cannot understand WHY you feel that THEY should exhaust all
Did the breeder know they were likely producing a puppy that would have severe allergy issues? If they did, then I could see holding them responsible, but given that it's highly unlikely, I'm afraid that your dog's medical issues really just fall into that huge category of "the crap-shoot of puppies", just as it would if your dog was dysplastic. Want a dog that can truly be guaranteed? Then you're gonna have to get a virtual pet, not a living, breathing creature. Want to try and increase the odds in your favor with a living, breathing creature? Then you need to get a dog that's 5 or more years old (so you get past the usual age of onset for epilepsy, as well as other heritable conditions such as EPI) and which has already been hip and elbow rated, thyroid, DM and cardiac tested and had an evaluation of spinal radiographs to rule out potential for cauda equina syndrome. Good luck with that...Got budget?
I just took in an 8 year old foster dog that is probably in truth now my dog, because what's the chances that there's somebody out there who's eagerly searching for a 100+# senior dog with a chronic autoimmune skin condition that will require special dietary supplementation and may require lifelong prednisone to control? They're about the same chances that there's someone else out there who's been searching for a 2 year dog with severe allergies and the possibility of lymphoma (since you haven't gotten a diagnosis for the enlarged lymph nodes at present, that potential has to remain on the table when discussing rehoming your dog)...
As the saying goes, an honorable person leaves the dance with the date who brought them...they don't leave with a better candidate.
[Edited to correct typo highlighted above]
by minro on 28 September 2011 - 22:26
|Hexe -- I'm not sure why you assume that I haven't exhausted all the possibilities on my end before involving the breeder. I've asked friends, family, trainers I know, people in my PSA club and THEIR friends/family. I've looked into rescues.|
My inability to care for her health issues have nothing to do with the efforts I've gone to in trying to find her a new home, and I would appreciate if you didn't assume so.
by isachev on 28 September 2011 - 22:29
|minro, I sent you a PM. Pete|
by gaf on 28 September 2011 - 23:44
|My 2yo rescue/pet/BYB GSD doesn't know what to do on grass. He's only used gravel/sand his whole life. The few times he's been on grass.....he runs around in crazy circles, leaps in the air & falls on the grass to wiggle in it. Very cute.|
I'm new to this forum & definitely not an expert in GSD's/breeding/training/health. IMHO, the breeder shouldn't be held responsible for the allergy disease your dog is suffering from....unless, of course, their crystal ball was working back when you got her. Life is like that sometimes & it just sucks. Very sorry you're having to deal with this whole situation. Both of you.
Here's my weird suggestion: Take her on vacation to AZ or NM & see how her allergies are in the dry heat & where only the urber-rich can afford to water grass & trees enough for them to thrive. Maybe then you'll know for sure what can be done for her, besides steroids for life/PTS/whatever, if it's strictly 'grass' that causes her reactions. Someone in the desert may be looking for just your type of girl. Good luck.
by troublelinx on 30 September 2011 - 01:07
|A dog with algeries like this and an owner w/o means for constant med treatment should put it to sleep. I hope this dog does not get the headaches associated with algeries. They are truely painful|
by FlashBang on 30 September 2011 - 13:49
|I'm pretty sure one our rescue girl (not a GSD) is allergic to everything, including air. As someone else stated about allergy testing...it does get expensive. Veterinarians are not trained allergists or dermatologists. After multiple diet changes, medications, wiping her down with an antibacterial wipe after she comes in from outside, wearing a t-shirt outside, and a battery of tests, we finally have the reins drawn in on her environmental (and dietary) allergies. |
Yes, it's still a pain in the, you know what, but it's not nearly as bad as it could have been.
And for cost purposes, her allergen testing ranged in between $1000 and $1100 over a span of two visits. When you're a student, undergrad, grad, or even doctorate, that can be a lot to swallow. However, before we had even gotten our dogs, we had set up a separate bank account solely for dog expenses, and we have also applied for and used CareCredit for a surgery when money was tight (and my husband was unemployed.)
I realize the OP has done quite a bit herself, but additional (at-home) testing can be done. If the dog is allergic to something other than environmental allergies, it's time to assess your home: diet (you said raw-chicken, but chicken is one of the top food allergies for dogs besides grains,) dust mites (bedding, furniture, etc.,) insects (fleas, ants, etc.)
by beetree on 30 September 2011 - 14:39
|Definately, I would be suspicious of chicken. Unless they are your own free range chickens, who knows what they gave that chicken. Don't laugh, GMO's are a big unknown and they are making their way into the food chain. And even if it is only grass allergies, it shouldn't be an immediate death sentence.|
The idea that there are lots of people looking to take on the responsibilty you are running from, is just mind boggling to me. Sad for your dog, they got dealt a bad hand, through no fault of their own.
by danbee on 02 October 2011 - 02:06
|It sounds to me like the breeder is being honest & trying to help. I think that offering a replacement puppy shows that they truly care about the buyer's situation, but while allergies can have a genetic component they can also be related to food, pesticides, and other environmental factors which cause immune system damage. I absolutely would not expect the breeder to offer money back. While it might be nice to think that the breeder has lots of connections who would want a dog with severe allergies and the potential for thousands of dollars in vet bills I don't think that's very realistic. Most people want a healthy dog (as does the buyer). There's not a lot of people out there saying "yes, I'll take a 2 yr old dog who I'm not attached to and spend thousands of dollars on it even though I might become attached and then have to euthanize him anyway if the issues can't be resolved. I haven't seen anyone here offer to take him. I think it's good that the breeder is honest enough to tell the buyer what the likely outcome would be so the buyer can make the choice. |
If I were in that situation, I'd offer advice (grain-free food or raw diet, no pesticides or chemicals in the home to start with) and would take the dog back to evaluate. If I felt the dog could be placed in a home where he would be happy & relatively healthy (as crhuerta found for her dog) then I'd do it and I'm guessing this breeder would as well. But if the allergies were so severe that I did not think the dog would ever have a good quality of life or would not be able to find a potential owner who was able to maintain the dog in good condition then I would euthanize if that was the kindest option. It's nice to think that there's some hypothetical person willing to take this dog but it's not likely to be the reality.
by Skylagsd on 02 October 2011 - 21:34
|so the breeder should not be responsible for bringing an allergic pup into this world.|
I am sure the the owner of the dog did not tell the breeder to give him a dog with allergies so to make it to difficult to do PSA with.
I can fully understand the breeder may not have known the pup would be allergic to grass. But seriously grass!!!! the guy/girl bought this dog to do sport with. Now what does he/she do because they have to stop going to the club for training. She can go to an indoor training centre but the dog needs to be on the field for the tests.
Minro was sold a dog to do sport with. He cannot do that... Surely the breeder needs to step up. I know the breeder offered another pup but some people here believe it is not the breeders responsibility to do so or even get involve in helping this dog out.
This story of buying a crap shoot is a bullsh** one. A sports dog that cannot be around grass... come on give me a break. This is not the buyers fault might not be the breeders fault. But it sure as hell is his responsibility to give him another dog or his money back.
by VKGSDs on 02 October 2011 - 22:16
|So can I return my dog because he has a bad habit of eating socks and that's costing me a lot of money in socks (and potentially having a blockage)? Can I return my Schutzhund dog because I don't really like the tone of his barking? Seriously, where would it end... *shakes head*|
As with all of these threads, everything we say is moot because the owner should be acting based on the CONTRACT. If there wasn't one, then what do you expect? If you want a breeder to "guarantee" against allergies, then you need to find a breeder that has this in their contract.
by Judy P on 02 October 2011 - 23:24
|First off a breeder can only do so much, you do appropriate health testing before breeding. You care for the puppies providing proper nutrition and medical care. That is all you can do - allergies can be caused by many external sources. It is also thought that a heavy worm load can have a link to allergies. Until there is a known cause that can be tested for and proven it is a crap shoot. In this case the breeder did off to replace the dog with a new puppy.|