German Shepherd Dog > Sven vom Grafental (39 replies)
by Pharaoh on 19 September 2011 - 19:51
|You will have to ask Jacques.|
by Ace952 on 19 September 2011 - 20:47
Really agree with this.
by Jenni78 on 19 September 2011 - 22:29
|Kelly, I have wondered that. I have never met Sindy. I have had and known several very similarly bred dogs out of Saskia & Sally, but I haven't ever heard anything terrible about Sindy, personally, and interestingly, it's only her males (sons, grandsons, etc.) that seem to have these issues. I haven't heard the same out of Saskia or Sally as far as males go, but that's not to say it hasn't happened. Most of my experience with them (Saskia and Sally progeny) has actually been females, so I can't speak from personal experience on those two and their males. I have only seen Sindy males, and oy vey....I could certainly live the rest of my life without dealing with another one of those freaks in my house. There are just too many good dogs out there to waste the time and energy w/these unbalanced animals. I love when someone tries to defend them with a great story of how a young female is doing just great....well, that's wonderful. How about her male littermates? Are they still alive? LOL...only it's really quite sad.|
I want to know how many dogs have to die in adolescence or shortly thereafter before breeders admit there's a problem and it's not fair to the dogs to breed them only to be killed. I guess I'm in the minority since I have an ethical problem with this.
And BTW, to those who say I'm not helpful because I didn't type 100 pages all over again...I did provide the links to some very interesting reading and debate, including some who have actually held these dogs on leashes and are speaking from what they've seen, not just heard, but the mods deleted the links and instead inserted a Google link. I didn't know we weren't allowed to post links. So, there you have it; I did try to help but it was deleted. I thought we only couldn't copy and paste from other forums, but apparently we're not even allowed to post links. I swore we just were told we could in the Breeder Greed thread. Oh well. My bad; my intent was to be helpful and still avoid excessive typing of things that have been said a zillion times.
If anyone is seriously interested in knowing where to go or who to ask for TRUE information w/no political spin, you can email me. This is my last post on the topic.
by KellyJ on 19 September 2011 - 23:27
Jenni, I emailed you for those links!
I reading what people are saying about what Sindy produces and I am thinking this dog must be the Devil! LOL
But I am now hooked and very interested in this!
by Q Man on 19 September 2011 - 23:57
|If you want a guarantee in a dog...then buy a Young Adult or an Adult Dog...|
If you don't believe that the Dog in question IS what is said to be...then DON'T buy it...
Sometimes you just have to experience things for yourself...There's no guarantees in life...
I think too many people want a guarantee on a Puppy...a guarantee for what...?
by Emoore on 20 September 2011 - 02:58
|About the testicle thing-- I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but Kopper is 4-4 on Sven and a Sven littermate (so Sven shows up once and his litter-sister shows up once) and we called him "yo-yo ball" when he was a pup. One of his testicles was down when I brought him home, then up two days later at the vet, then down, then up again. . . . it didn't stay down until he was nearly 4 months old. They're both down now.|
by Elkoorr on 20 September 2011 - 04:37
|I have linebred 4-3 on Sven. No issues with testicles. Canines were to come out very very slow. Both girls I kept, and I would assume Aurick as well, had complete dentition. Ava puppy has retained one baby P1 with the permanent one sitting next to it. One weak ear. Loong tails on the 2 girls I had, with the tip curling just a ted at times (need too watch if Ava grows out of that; none of the parents had any problems with teeth, ears or tails). Both girls were on the shyer site as small pups but overcame this. Very aloof to strangers, intolerant of other dogs outside my pack. Good drives, excellent food drive. Doing well in SCHH training. The boys appear to come temperament wise after daddy, can be more serious and all snarly teeth, possessive, civil.|
One known here is Aurick vom Goldwald, Cat and Jay's boy.
by Jenni78 on 20 September 2011 - 04:53
|Gawd, I'm glad you mentioned that tail. I wondered what was up with that; are her legs too short or is her tail too long? LOL She retained one baby canine, but the day before I was due to take her into have it pulled, she broke it off and the dead part came right out in a couple days when I grabbed it w/a tweezer. Full dentition and very nice bite otherwise. Definitely on the quieter, shyer side (than I'm used to anyway) with zero interest in strangers (which I love), a healthy dose of suspicion, very warm with family, super with kids and very very mature about this, great with other dogs (no issues w/outside dogs either w/Anya- I could take her anywhere), but still had pretty decent drives for sport or personal protection. Very very nice "off switch." Calm but persistent and tenacious about what she wants, slightly dominant, esp. for a female of her age. I do see similarities between Anya and other similarly bred dogs in certain little quirks/mannerisms/tendencies. It truly is not Sven throwing the true problems.|
by Elkoorr on 20 September 2011 - 18:15
|From what I heared from some Germans even Sindy herself was ok, descriping her as a "rough bitch". Its not so that there was intentional breeding on bad temperament. It appears more that the combination of the genes just did not "click". Nobody really wants to talk about it anymore, answeres are difficult to get.|
Linebreeding on Sven seems to be ok. Many of the east german line dogs here in the US have Sven in them, often are already linebred on Sven. Do we really want to continue going down this bottleneck?
by olskoolgsds on 23 September 2011 - 04:53
Good place to start with questions (sometimes)
I have some personal experience, limited more to Boban. As some have said, there seems to have been some problems with this particular breeding. I like Sven and I like Sindy's ped. Some good working girls. This combo just seemed to not work out as Elkoorr stated. Genetics are not always predictable. Breeding from these lines may be more of a crap shoot. I would not do it and I do not intend on breeding my male. I do know his litter brother is an LE dog and a very tough one at that.
My boy is what I want. He is not what most want. He is not a Schutzhund dog, not great in OB. Prey is fair to good, but defense is strong. Does not fear man and is always ready to meet a challange. Very quick to the draw.
Most do not like this in a GSD, want more well rounded. In a perfect world so would I, however, for what he brings to the table in serious protection and fight drive I love. He is the one I want with my wife when I am not home. On the down side, I have to watch him in public. He will not tolerate someone invading our space nor will he tolerate someone starring at him, he will stand up and talk to them. He, like many DDR dogs is very affectionate with me and my wife. He dies and goes to heaven when my wife shows him attention. He is very strong, and nice to look at if you like dark heavy bone and head.
So it is a personal thing, what a person is looking for. To compare dogs to say firearms, one could ask, "what is the best dog or what is the best firearm". The answer is what you have need of at the time. He does not place well with many dogs in Sport, but he is number one in defense and that is what I rely on. I have another dog that fills the other bills. The two make a great pair.
Not sure if this helps, just my experience.
by Pharaoh on 23 September 2011 - 06:47
|I was wondering if any of the Boban progeny owners were going to jump in and speak their piece.|
Olskool, you bring up an important issue. The exclusive bonding to immediate family. The family that raised him from a puppy and gives a home for life. There is no tolerance for change.
Boban did not get that stability from the life he has led. He was born in a place that only appreciated sport dogs. So he had to go. He has been bought and sold like livestock. That did severe damage to his psyche. Who knows how many more changes are in store for him.
by olskoolgsds on 24 September 2011 - 01:51
There are many pieces to this dog and you certainly brought up one of them. I felt bad for this dog from the first time I saw him. Some of the issues around this dog may have been worked out with a good active working enviroment that spent some bonding time with him. He was a handfull and thus did not get what he needed. I am a firm believer in getting out of each dog all he has to offer, and this means sacrifice. Personally I liked the dog and would loved to have spent some time with him and see what made him tick and capatilize on his strengths, and work out the rest the best you can.
I have seen too many dogs that did not live up to expectations and are given up on, but with someone else and some time they can turn a corner and be something to behold. I know this to be true. Same principal with children.
I am happy with my boy and he fits the bill for me. He looks much like dad.
by Pharaoh on 24 September 2011 - 21:03
|I have been told that Boban bonded to the kennel help. I have also been told that there was an "incident" with Jacques. Also, that he could not be breed surveyed and in fact he isn't. What is the SG for? He never progressed beyond SchH I.|
He is on this website http://emmanuelshepherds.com/ourdogs_males_boban.htm
There are some problems. They state he is OFA excellent. I searched OFA's lookup and could not find any results for Boban, nor Grauen nor Monstab. Not one record turned up for any of those searches. I am sure that Julie did not OFA him, nor the next owner and the current owner is in Canada. I conclude that there is no OFA on this dog. So, why does Emmanuel Shepherds have on their website on the Boban page, that he is OFA excellent? Pedigree database is corrected and no longer says OFA excellent but Emmanuel Shepherds still does say OFA excellent.
What is true is that Boban is a stunning dog and so are his offspring. I have spoken to a number of them, owners of male Boban progeny. They love their dogs but they are not for everyone and they, like Olskool, are very, very careful with them.
by Emoore on 24 September 2011 - 21:51
That's odd, Pharoh. Boban is also listed as being at this kennel in Florida: http://www.vomanton.com/DOGSAVAILABLE.HTML
by kitkat3478 on 24 September 2011 - 22:52
| If not mistaken, I think Rick states Boban is at stud in Canada, with a good friend.|
I also have a Sven grand-daughter,and she is a terrific girl. Very high drive dog, with a temperment that is truly fantastic.
She can be all fired up and ready to get to work, and than turn around and be 100% calm with my grand-daughter.
I am very happy with this girl. She came from Anton(whom by the way is very helpful and honest when seeking info on a particular dog).
If your looking for DDR...
by kazulani on 24 September 2011 - 22:55
|Thanks for the link! Nice pics of Boban! looks like he is being worked over there. His son Diesel looks good too!!|
My friend Pieter has a daughter of Boban - Bora v Domburgerland. Very nice bitch, very strong bone and a good character.
He will be breeding her second nest next year.
His father owns a Sindy son and that is a different type of cookie. Georg is a very serious dog!
by Jenni78 on 24 September 2011 - 23:01
|1 last time....it's NOT SVEN!|
by olskoolgsds on 25 September 2011 - 05:36
The pics do him no justice IMO. He is a very strong dog and very masculan. The action shots are old ones before he came in country. If you are looking for predictability in a litter, I would not use Boban. If you like real crap shoots, then he might be worth the risk IMO.
Pharaoh, I believe you are correct about incident (s) with Jacques, and maybe should have had more IMO. He bonded wonderfully with his second owner, I spent some time chatting with him, but again, he spent a lot of individual time with him. I do not believe he had a good start in life and it is hard to go back in time. I hope it is better for him in these later years. I guess I am more in line with Max on these dogs. They are apart of the family and involved with what is going on. They thrive on human interaction for the most part.
by Pharaoh on 25 September 2011 - 17:29
|Olskool-I thought that Julie was his second owner and that she bought him directly from Jacques. Then, she sold or traded him to someone who didn't keep him for long and sold him again. I don't know how many additional owners there were between the guy Julie sold him to and Emmanuel Shepherds in Canada. So, there have so far been a minimum of 4 owners so far.|
I have had a conversation with a woman who does training and boarding. She has experience with Boban male offspring and described them as difficult and unpredictable.
Pharaoh is as tough and hardheaded a dog as I can handle. At 4 years old, he is way more biddable. But, he is very loving and loyal. He is very social with other dogs and people. He is very predictable. Maybe I will put a BH on him.
by cordon on 25 September 2011 - 17:39
|Boban is in Saskatchewan, CA.|
Co owned by Shpherd Glen K9 and Emanuel