German Shepherd Dog > Schutzhunds obsession with extreme prey drive. (89 replies)
by Gustav on 06 September 2011 - 21:09
|What Felloffher said,|
I just turned a dog over to the police that doesn't bark excessively and hits like a freight train.....He's Czech/West....So????? Its not an either or thing....though some always try to make it that. This dog in hold and bark had nice deep solid bark and not that high pitched strain to bark cause I'm so focused on the sleeve. That's what I like, but there's room for DDR, WG, and Czech in a breeders toolkit. For the just plain competitor, maybe all German or all Czech is what they want....but I breed dogs not lines.
by OGBS on 06 September 2011 - 21:29
|"Of course there are WG lines that have it all and same with DDR..there have been WUSV ch of both. Grim and Tom come to mind"|
Name one "pure" DDR dog that has won the WUSV.
Grim was Czech and did not win the WUSV.
If you are saying that there is some DDR influence in dogs that have won the WUSV then that is a valid statement, but, I doubt many would agree that those dogs are why a particular dog won the WUSV. They are, for the most part, a small genetic amount of any dog that has won the WUSV. Iin your example of Tom van't Leefdaalhof you only see DDR dogs in the 4th and 5th generation. Of the 48 dogs in gens 4 and 5 there are 10 of 48 dogs that would be considered DDR. That works out to slightly less than 21%.
"Many who want sporty types are very concerened with every point and need a fast dog that is not one who tends to dirty bite, manahandle the decoy, has no problem with the retrieve, so sometimes they don't like the larger civil, independent dog."
All of what you have described above is what people call training. You only see the end product in a competition. If you think that the "WG sporty dogs" as you call them are ready made out of the womb and then you flip the switch and off you go, you haven't been around many good dogs. I don't know of any worthwhile dog that doesn't "dirty bite", "manhandle the decoy", retrieve issues, etc.
The "larger, civil, independent dog": Why would you want this?
Larger = slower, less ability to work over the long haul, civil won't go after anything unless confronted, independent dogs don't make very good partners in sport, police, or anything for that matter. If what you mean is having, as a part of the genetic makeup, the ability to access these qualities (other than larger) then great, but, don't think that WG working lines don't also encompass these characteristics.
When a dog has a ton of prey drive it doesn't mean they are lacking in defense/civil. Too many people like to think of dogs in terms of, for example 75% prey and 25% defense. It doesn't work that way. You can have a dog with a ton of both, a little of both, equal amounts of both, more of one than the other, none of both, but, it doesn't work out to an equation of 100%, or, if I have this amount of prey, then I can only have what is left over for defense. Where do people get this crap?
The other important factor of this is what is the dog being trained for?
I could have a dog with a huge amount of prey, or a huge amount of civil, but, I am only going to train it for akc obedience. Will either of those drives ever be tapped in to? Not likely.
One thing that many, many people fail to realize is that, for the most part, really good WG working line dogs will not end up as police dogs. The German government has a maximum that can be spent on a police dog candidate. It is something like 1500 euros (don't know the exact amount). A really good WG working line dog will fetch far, far more money from a private person interested in competing with the dog and then possibly breeding it down the line. Do you think that breeders and trainers in Germany are sending their best dogs to police departments for less money? I doubt it.
I also find it comical that many people believe that the DDR type dog is the excellent police dog candidate when in fact all over the world the type of dog that many police departments have gone to is the Malinois. A Malinois is the complete opposite of what a DDR type dog is.
Many police departments have also found out the hard way that a good police dog isn't one that is going to go around kissing babies. A baby kissing police k9 is a great PR dog, but, usually not the best police dog. Of course there are always ex
by Gustav on 06 September 2011 - 22:21
|What is it that people get so defensive about Czech dogs???? Nobody is ever saying that Czech dogs are the end of the equation. People are breeding Czech/German lines to achieve goals and maintain genetic diversity. Its not because one side has to pull the other side up. Its a balance thing and IF you know the Czech lines well enough then you know which dogs can bring certain elements that you need without having to go to the German counterpart. Or you may like the Czech dogs and want a tad of something from the German dogs to diversify the Czech lines...this is all smart breeding and doable if you know both lines and have access. Some of this talk is stupid just like partisan politics.|
Just got off the site for the Northeast Regional championships. Was looking at the competitors and lo and behold there is T-Floyd competeing with a owner bred dog that has a Czech mother(Hessy Naspo). And there was Kristen Oberholter also competing with a litter brother so also a Czech mother. Then there is Pedro Jiminez competing with a dog who's dam is Erika Zamat, Erika's mother is Czech. I know and respect these people but they must not have got the memo???
I find good and bad in Czech/DDR/and West working....the trick is to achieve balance to keep producing sound working dogs, whichever way you want to do it.JMO
by Felloffher on 06 September 2011 - 23:00
by hunger4justice on 07 September 2011 - 00:21
|<SIGH> I never said anything negative at all about West German Lines. I said both bring a lot to the table and the mix can bring the best of both...why..|
My DDR W/G mix is 95 pounds, all muscle and he is FAST, he is civil and he is very stable..gets along with my cats, other dogs. He is both the tallest and by far the fastest dog so size does not mean they are slow or less athletic.
Another DDR/WG large..powerful (I like powerful..that is just me...if I wanted something tiny and crazy that bites like a shark, I'd get a Mal) and athletic, with a great vertical jump and very steady nerves.
My Leefdaalhof grandson is serious, fast, hits hard, and he is not playing. You can see pics of his daddy going through a window after someone online..also big and an athlete.
It is the marriage of good dogs that hopefully brings something more to the table than either alone and I do not think there are enough great dogs out there where we can afford to exclude any lines.
I too wish the old testing was still part of schutzhund that some have spoken about on these boards where prey and sport alone would not have cut it at all.
by Bundishep on 07 September 2011 - 00:54
|Lets face it prey drive is a very important part of any well bred balanced shepard,with out it to me the dog isnt much good,I must be weird but I do like to hunt with my dogs and the same instincts that drive that will also bring down the bad guy in a police chase or serve the dog well on the Sch feild,to me it is a win win thing to have in your dog, would i want a dog to jump off a cliff to chase a ball? NO ,but if he did i would not blame the dog, maybe the person who through the object over the edge not the dog,instead I would like to see the dog work the problem to see if he can fig.out how to get to the object in a safe manner if I told him to get it, and if i have a ball on top of my fridge and i tell him to leave it i do not want to buy a new fridge in him trying to get to it,strong prey drive with good control is key.|
by Slamdunc on 07 September 2011 - 03:23
|The last thing I want for a Police K-9, or a PPD is a dog trained solely in defense. A dog constantly pushed into defense is going to be a little insecure and expect every fight or challenge to be a "dangerous" situation. I would think the OP doesn't understand the application of prey and defense in training a dog and what prey brings in an actual confrontation. A good PPD should see a person charging, running, yelling, screaming, threatening directly at the dog or handler as "prey." When you understand this concept you begin to understand the need for prey and how to properly train a PPD. A purely defensive dog is just not going to hold up as well under serious stress and pressure as a well balanced properly trained dog will. |
I prefer high drive dogs, both high in prey and high in defense. I like a civil dog loaded in prey, that backs it up with strong natural aggression and fight drive. When I test and select Police K-9's the seriously defensive dogs are the easiest to back down and quickly eliminated. I test the prey drive first and rate it, then we do some civil agitation. The low prey high defense dogs usually will not cut it as a Police K-9. I believe it takes more to be a good K-9 than it does to be a good PPD. Many people are fooled or impressed by the big show from the defensive dogs. More often than not it is nothing more than a show. I'll choose the quiet, confident, high prey drive dog with good natural aggression over them in a minute.
I recently watched a youtube video of a seriously insecure, defensive dog that has no business doing any bitework. I then read comments on another forum about "what a real dog" it is and a poster saying "I'll work that dog for you." It was amazing how people can think such a weak dog could ever be a PPD. If the leash was dropped the dog would have ran for the hills, it was very clear to see. Sure, the dog was aggressive because he had no chance to run. The dog was pushed into defensive and wanted nothing to do with it. The decoy used a sleeve and some poster said the dog should only be worked on a bite suit to protect the decoy, because the dog is so tough. The decoy didn't even put any real pressure on the dog and only did what the inexperienced handler directed him to do. If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable.
by Chaz Reinhold on 07 September 2011 - 03:37
|Jim, I love dogs like that. You don't have to worry about them leaving early or hurting the helper in the courage test. The call out is nice too. They are just looking for a reason to leave the blind. Obedience is a pleasure with these dogs too. If the dog makes it past check-in, you're stylin'.|
by Slamdunc on 07 September 2011 - 04:04
Yes, you are correct but let's add the shallow bites and the difficult outs if the dog does even bite. You lose a lot of points there.
by steve1 on 07 September 2011 - 05:07
Very good Post
by Dog Bum on 07 September 2011 - 06:47
|OGBS - Well said!|
Bite v/s Grip? Semantics. "Does your dog bite?" (Due respect to Peter Sellers) The SV introduced "grip" as a PR strategy to counter anti-dog sport fanatics' claims of promoting vicious dogs.
Ascendence of the Maliniois, Czech, East Ger. dog? How much did economics influence the buyer choice?
by steve1 on 07 September 2011 - 09:44
|For me i do not go into these terms some of you Guys use even if they be correct.|
With me a dog etheir has what you are looking for in a Dog or it does not thats simple.
Some Dogs are weak in some areas and now i am refering to the ScH sport, what we are all looking for is a Dog which is fearless, has solid nerves, a good strong Bark right from the very first bark, and a Dog which listens to its handler whist still being focused on what it is doing.
Lines of Dogs i do not bother about it is the Dog which you have purchased or in most cases the Puppy you have bought they are no so straight forwards but if you do your homework right and be very selective it mostly works out okay.
Then it is how you bring out the best of what you are handling, No one ever says or talks about the handler meaning themselves, Some are better than others for getting more from a Dog than another person.
Take Gina for instance she is all of what is said by you Guys and more, a Power house of a Female with a Bark as stronger as most Males steady consistent never yappy or squeaky, Consistent strong Barks. Her Bite is far more Powerful than any Male or Female in the Club, she has winded and made every Helper who has taken her on grunt and comment there is no holding back she goes straight in like a train every time.
I guess that is why the top Boys over here want to get hold of her. However what i was saying is this The Handler counts a huge amount no one ever mentions this fact when training Dogs.
Now if the great Ronny had Gina i would expect her to go to the highest level and she has the talent to do it but then Ronny is not handling her, that is what i am trying to get across The Dog must be good But then so must the one taking the dog along the way in that area the quality falls down quite a lot with us humans.
by judron55 on 07 September 2011 - 11:18
I have no problem with Czech dogs...just wondering what people are experiencing. I know some very good breeders that breed for police work and use the dogs that work. These are German Shepherd breeders. They use Czech, WG, whatever works. Where the dog comes from is irrelevant:-) Check out CarmsPack shepherds....Carmen Duggan...
by Gustav on 07 September 2011 - 11:59
|@ Judron....this is exactly how I feel. I want a good strong dog, with the genetics to keep producing what they are. I don't want a dog lacking courage, or has genetic insecurities, and I don't want a dog with more drive than brains. So I tend to prefer European working lines and and Czech/Slovak working lines. Actually, I think Sweden has done a nice job of maintaining the breed as a good solid working dog over the past 50 years.JMO|
by Chaz Reinhold on 07 September 2011 - 17:12
|Jim, that was a joke.|
by johan77 on 07 September 2011 - 19:54
|I wonder thou if extreme preydrive is equall to an extreme lust for work in the dogs? Some say the GSD, as a generalization, over the past 20 years have changed to a more alert and quick dog, with lower thresholds to be able to have a more flashy dog in obedience. In former times the dogs were a bit more stable and calm but this didn´t make them lack a big motor for search and tracking that is a large part of policework. So to a certain extent both the GSD and malinois may have changed due to breeding for certain qualities favoured in sport, and if you focus to much on one thing other traits can be surpressed. If you look at videos on dogs from the 80s and early 90s it seems they are a bit more "balanced" compared to some of the modern dogs, think you also can see this difference if you compare certain lines of GSDs breed for different focus/sports.|
But whatever floats your boat, some like a very lively quick dog, others likes the more steady calmer type better, in sport and police there are both types, and as long the dogs are not lacking in other important areas I guess this is just a question of taste. But as our sports once was supposed to reflect the practical work of the workingdogs, I think it´s a loss if people rather breed to a sportdog that isn´t ideal for practical work compared to a dog that may lack some things to make him perfect in sport but is a solid workingdog in real conditions. I guess that´s the worry for some, to many breeds just for sport, don´t know how much of a concern that is thou, maybe it´s much talk over a minor issue.
by isachev on 07 September 2011 - 19:58
|I think H4J summed it up perfectly. So good I think we should all read it again!|
by Slamdunc on 07 September 2011 - 20:17
I thought you were joking. Let me know when you are being serious.
by OGBS on 07 September 2011 - 20:44
|Ohh, it's so chilling!|
You should read that to all the kids at Halloween, or, late at night around the campfire.
And what about this:
"They are dogs that are markedly different with children, or handicapped people."
So, if I want to rob your house or mug you, I am going to send children and handicapped people.
by VKGSDs on 07 September 2011 - 22:06
|I'm OK with a more defense type dog. Ideally I like a good deal of both, but not super low thresholds for either in my world. I am not an LEO and don't need a K-9, so I am OK with a dog that needs actual threat to activate. I can't think of a situation where I'd need to send my dog after someone that didn't make a threat first. I like the prey until it becomes the only thing that the dog uses. Maybe this is a training problem, but I have seen dogs so high in prey and so low in threshold that while someone is making a physical conflict the dog is turning away barking at a sleeve on the ground. I think I'd puke on myself if my dog behaved like that. But the dog is titled and performs very well in high level competitions, very good dog for it's purpose of high level competition and high prey and toy drive for searching. I'm not a breeder and I don't aspire to be a national level competitor so I have the luxury of choosing dogs exactly as I want them with the characteristics I want. I'm more OK with a dog that brings more defense than prey than a dog that brings only prey. But I feel like everytime a conversation like this comes up, the use of the word "defense" gets interpreted as *only* defense. IMO a GSD is not a GSD if there is *no* prey drive in the protection work, but I personally have seen many dogs that to me have (or are using) too much prey drive in their protection work for my taste. I believe it gives them an advantage in sport because they tend to naturally be faster, strike hard, fast, and full, but the disadvantages I see are lower thresholds in general so there are many control issues, dog chewing on the sleeve, dog overloading too quickly/too easily and just not thinking straight. If I can't have an ideal balance of prey and defense I would rather not have this high prey/low threshold combination, it is annoying and not very useful to me personally. I have a young dog that is not being worked in protection right now because he's borderline obsessive prey and wanting to only use that. Part of it is age, part of it is pedigree. If he were to continue being trained right now he would get in the habit of only using prey and become the dog I never wanted. More than prey vs. defense I need a dog that is safe and correctly discerning of threat the way I personally interpret it (ie, can my dad walk into my house without me there to work on plumbing without my dog going after his jugular). Really I do not want an overabundance of prey OR defense and I do not believe a sound working dog or protection dog has to be "extreme" with either.|