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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Was 2011 a good Sieger Show or a Bad Sieger Show? (76 replies)
by VKGSDs on 07 September 2011 - 13:02 |
| I would like to congratulate the owner of Yoshyi Haus Dexel. I do not know him/her personally but have seen many posts here over time and the owner appears to work very hard with their dog and is always proud of the dog and his progress. I was really annoyed at people showing such poor sportsmanship pulling their dog because it didn't make this group or that group or probably wasn't going to get the placing that the owner wanted (I know it happens every time but to me it is poor sportsmanship, the dog should show and be made to feel like he is VA1!) and then I see the owner of Yoshyi very proud of how his dog performed and his result. As for the work test, IMO they might as well do away with it altogether. Who the hell are we kidding? The "courage test" has become so watered down I personally won't even show my show line dog (that I have trained in SchH and other protection sports for years). The test no longer even highlights a dog that CAN work and show great courage and power. And don't assume I'm one of those anti-show line people. My main dog is a full show line male and he's got a bunch of titles and nowhere near done. I haven't shown him in an SV type show since fall 2009. I enjoy showing dogs (do more UKC showing now) and enjoy my show line dog, will get another, but lately I would be embarrassed to be associated with the SV type shows. |
VKGSDs by Mackenzie on 09 September 2011 - 13:06 |
Aand A mentioned four dogs in his post and I found it interesting to note the following:- Ustinov comes for the first time to the VA group at almost five years of age (5years next week). In my opinion the best time to come for the first time. Peik also comes to the VA group at almost five years of age (5 in November) Also in my opinion the best time to come for the first time. Nino came to the VA group last year at the age of 3 years. Perhaps a year too soon. Remo came to the VA group at the age of two and a half years. Again perhaps a year to eighteen months too soon. For dogs to come to the VA group (in my opinion) they must have a fair number of progeny on the ground to make a fair assessment of their breeding value and, I do not think that Nino and Remo had enough at their first appearance and it will only be in the next year where a proper assessment of their progeny can be made as there will be enough offspring grown on to the point that their worth will be really seen. Whether these dogs will go some way to help resolve problems in the breed will not be clear for some time to come. If I were breeding at this time I would consider Ustinov and Peik and prefer to wait a year to see the value of the younger dogs. Of course, there is the possibility that these dogs will not remain in Germany and, therefore, their full worth not be found for good or bad. Mackenzie |
by dshlerner on 09 September 2011 - 14:00 |
| Mackenzie, Actually,Ustinov was VA7 in 2010 for the first time after being top V the year before. Thus,in his case,he "climbed through the ranks" as it were,in an appropriate manner. I certainly agree that 2 to 3 years old is far too young to guage the breeding value of any dog. If I recall correctly,was it not just 4(maybe 5)years ago that the SV mandated that no male should be awarded an Auslese without showing a progeny group at the BSZS in order to qualify for that coveted VA rating? More empty talk from the SV, perhaps?! I believe that part of the reason some of these young dogs get catapulted into the VA group at such a young age is that it increases the likelihood of them becoming better producers by ensuring breeding opportunities with top bitches. Based on the producing abilities of their respective sires,maybe the thinking is that they have the genetics behind them to warrant such high places early on in their stud careers? It certainly proved true with Yasko vom Farbenspiel,for example. I don't know that I necessarily agree with that belief,but this is what pops into my head as a possible justification on the part of the "powers that be" if you will. And of course we always have to account for "who owns the dog" in our analysis! Did I say that? LOL... I must admit,Mackenzie,that I am very pleased to see that this discussion has thus far remained amicable and productive,as opposed to the sliging matches that have so often characterized these exchanges in the past! Cheers! |
by Rico on 09 September 2011 - 14:22 |
| BEAUTIFULL PICTURES OF THE BSZS FROM GUUS KERSEMAKERS ON WWW.SEGUSODA.NL SELECT NIEUWS AND THEN BSZS 1 -09 - 2011 NURNBERG ENJOY. PS. THANK YOU FOR THE NICE COMMENTS ON YOSHYI VOM HAUS DEXEL.  |
Rico by Mackenzie on 09 September 2011 - 14:32 |
Good post dshlerner. Glad to see that you are still with us. With regard to young dogs being highly placed based on genetic possibility I think this is the wrong road to take. It is better to see the evidence on the ground first and then make a judgement. If they are good enough they will get matings to the better quality females in sufficient numbers. There have been many VA males and females in the past years who have left nothing. Notably Tell v Grossen Sand who made VA2 and his sister Tina v Grossen Sand who made Siegerin. The other aspect is that many young dogs get good placing’s to facilitate a sale. It takes a bit of experience to recognize these animals. Also, politics will always play a big part in the show scene as placing’s are only opinion based and, unlike performance related places as in working it is easier to manipulate. Sad but true. I agree that the contributors to this post have been more intent on sensible comment rather than coming here to go to war. If it can be kept this way then hopefully more people will contribute and we can all learn something. Mackenzie |
by Lennard on 09 September 2011 - 15:28 |
| Please note the above link to does not work, need to remove the full stop after the NL or use the link below http://www.segusoda.nl/ |
by dshlerner on 09 September 2011 - 15:36 |
| Hi Mackenzie, Yes,I am always lurking in some form or another:) I could not agree with you more that my above suggestion is the wrong approach to take. I was simply offering it as one possible justification for early,high placements. Regarding Tell,he did leave us the F litter vom Hirschel,with Fanto of course being 2X Sieger. Fanto produced better females however,and so his influence was shown most notably through his daughters( VA Lusie>Brigitt>VA Betty,and VA Biggie.Also,Lusie >Alin> VA Magit,who produced Pirie v.Haus Dexel,the dam of VA Orbit,for example). In addition,Frei vom Hirschel was a known producer of excellent temperment and good working drives,as evidenced by his best son Amigo vom Belgier,who in turn left us VA Quartz dei Templari,et al. Another dog who was highly touted years ago,was VA Ajax vom Haller Osning. Being the "best" son of VA Fando,one would have thought that he too would have been a top producer,especially given the genetics on his motherline that proceeded to Uran over Warro vom Huhnegrab,and the prolific producer Frenzi von der Steinhagerquelle ! Unfortunately,Ajax did not prove to be a dominant sire,with his highest rated offspring in the GHKL being a Kirschental bitch who,I believe was V25 at the Sieger Show some years ago. As to the politics and the placements to facilitate a sale,unfortunately yes,it goes on rightly or wrongly. Your point is well taken here. Also unfortunate,is the fact that the market(at least this is true in North America)essentially dictates that VA sires sell the most puppies,often at outrageous prices! Try selling puppies from the V137 male at the BSZS and this point becomes abundantly clear! As a result,many breeders base their breeding decisions primarily,or so it would seem,on the results of the latest BSZS,and less on the male that may offer the best compliment to their bitches. I don't know how this plays out in Europe,or Germany specifically,but I can tell you that it is very true on my side of the pond! Fortunately,there are still breeders out there that DO breed for correct conformation as well as health,working ability,sound temperment,etc....you can usually find them at the back of the pack. Not always,but far too often. Very sad. |
by AandA on 09 September 2011 - 17:36 |
| I'm going to have to be brief as I'm using my phone & it's like trying to write through e letter box.... Mackienze raises good points regarding age & progeny. Points which an armchair afficionado like myself wouldn't necessarily consider (or be aware of, ahem). They also help in realising change doesn't happen overnight, but perhaps concerns are being listened to & acted on. Would anyone know how many of the dogs were of the correct size? At a recent show an SV judge did mention they haven't always been as diligent in this area as they should. Great thread & good to see experienced & knowledgable views being exchanged in a pleasant manner. More please! AandA |
AandA by Mackenzie on 09 September 2011 - 18:23 |
Hello again dshleerner, we are really moving along now. Of course I am well of Fanto and the others that you mention, however, considering that as a double Sieger, in my opinion, I think that his legacy should have been more. When you look at Tell’s mother Jenny v Grossen Sand she was difficult to get pregnant and I believe Dr Beck tried two or three times with her. He eventually gave up and returned Jenny who was then mated to Sonny v Badener Land just because he was there and produced Tell and Tina. I also thought that the production from Fando would have been better. He lived in Bremen and few breeders would travel from far away to use him. I suspect that most of the females that came to him were fairly local, so to speak and, therefore, not the best around at the time. I agree with you regarding the VA males and their puppies. It is the same here in Europe and very much follow the leader when it comes to selection. VA = Sales at high prices. Over the years there have been many good well placed males in the top V30 range that perhaps would have been a better choice for a breeder. Who would have thought of Hobby v Gletschertopf who made V41 and sired Ursus v Batu ? Times may be changing but the pace of change will not match the pace of change which has brought us to this point that we see today. If we are not careful many of the treasured trait of the German Shepherd will be lost forever. Mackenzie |
by Mackenzie on 10 September 2011 - 06:43 |
We have been talking about the dogs of yesteryear but so far we have not covered the dogs of say, the last ten years and their influence. Clearly some things must have been noticed about some of these dogs producing undesirable traits and I would like to see comment from people who have experienced some of the faults in their own breeding. I was never a big fan of Zamp despite some people saying that he was the greatest. I must admit that when he made youth sieger I thought he had a great deal of promise, however, I changed that view as he grew on and I dealt with a few of his progeny from a training point of view. For a Sieger I did not find him to be the soundest of dogs when going away and, as he grew on, he became too heavy and deep in the chest. I cannot say about his own temperament because I never saw him carrying out enough work to make a firm judgement. I did try to train three offspring from him from different litters and found them difficult to motivate and they always appeared very flat. One male that I handed back to the owner eventually, at the age of 23 months, finally passed the BH test. There have been reports of similar experience from other owner/trainers. Now that we have seen some of these offspring come into the breeding programme the question is “are we seeing this character passed on?” We have to be fair with this observation because much of the dogs character will be influenced by the owner/handlers and their skills. Another problem today is that more dental problems are arising. There are some who put this down to Quenn as he appears to be the common denominator in this observation. Does anyone have experience of this in their breeding programme? All the dogs now carry the gene for size and this is still a problem today. Tyson is an oversize male and is producing this problem but breeders are still using him in some numbers. I have also known of dental problems with one or two animals. Although I have named dogs of the current era I hope that any comment on these and, peoples experience, will not damn the dogs because there may be benefits in taking a calculated risk when considering them for matings. Mackenzie |
by Irina Kuznetsova on 10 September 2011 - 07:51 |
This is the first about German Shepherds male protection service in SV BSZS 2011 BUNDESSIEGERZUCHTSCHAU in Nurnberg. We were taking videos from 8.50 till 16.30. We saw and took HD videos of 170 tests. We'll be glad if these videos are interesting and useful to all GSD fans! Irina and Sergey Kuznetsovs, Moscow, Russia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btVaLHib5tM
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Irina Kuznetsova by Mackenzie on 10 September 2011 - 13:16 |
In my last post I wrote about the lack of work ethic in the progeny of Zamp and it got me thinking about the introduction of a working dog to a mating with show dogs. Before everyone throws up their hands and says “Oh no” take a look at Neck v d Wolfen and his sire. Both dogs have very good construction and good strong grey colour but more important this bloodline may bring back some of the character and workability that is being lost. Remember not all of the litter would be grey. The working qualifications of these two males and the rest of the animals behind them speak volumes. Although I have not researched all working dogs in writing this post I do think that this could be a building block to restoring the very thing that we are losing - strength of character. There will of course be others but I hope that this post gets people thinking and I would be interested in reading comments. Mackenzie |
by tangsd on 10 September 2011 - 18:29 |
| Thankyou Irina. I enjoyed going last year and so hoped you were going to video again this year. |
tangsd by Abby Normal on 10 September 2011 - 20:40 |
| Thank you Irina, I was hoping that your videos would be here again! Mackenzie, I believe that quite a number of SL have now been mated with Neck over the last couple of years for exactly the reasons you describe. I have seen photo's and some video of one litter, who looked to be turning out quite nicely. I wonder whether they will ever be shown in a conformation ring though. I know of one breeder who kept a pup back from a litter saying that she would have to sacrifice showing. So, knowing that the modern type of SL is the only type that wins, a breeder of this type of litter knows that the dog is not going to get placed at shows, and will therefore forfeit showing (so the attributes/benefits of such a breeding will likely never be 'seen'). It's a catch 22. The breeders who are doing this are people who certainly have the interest of the breed at heart, but must be willing to sacrifice any reward in the show ring. Some of these breeders have no interest in showing anyway, but appear to be striving to regain a dog that embodies the 'universal' GSD. |
Abby Normal by Gustav on 10 September 2011 - 22:08 |
| Mackensie, DSHlerner, and AandA,....Thank you for an intelligent disussion about the show lines that was informing and balanced. The fact that you tactfully pointed out some pitfalls, suggested some remedies, objectively assessed some dogs, is a welcome relief from the moronic pom-pom people who only see the good and refuse to acknowledge, much less act on obvious faults. This has been very refreshing to read...the good and the bad....because only if we acknowledge both can we ever hope to improve....Bravo! |
by Ibrahim on 10 September 2011 - 22:34 |
| Thanks Irina and Sergey you are great Ibrahim |
by Ibrahim on 10 September 2011 - 22:38 |
| AndA, hello, very happy to see you posting again, do make your posts more often though Ibrahim |
by Ibrahim on 10 September 2011 - 23:02 |
dshleerner  Regarding Tell,he did leave us the F litter vom Hirschel,with Fanto of course being 2X Sieger. Fanto produced better females however,and so his influence was shown most notably through his daughters( VA Lusie>Brigitt>VA Betty,and VA Biggie.Also,Lusie >Alin> VA Magit,who produced Pirie v.Haus Dexel,the dam of VA Orbit,for example). In addition,Frei vom Hirschel was a known producer of excellent temperment and good working drives,as evidenced by his best son Amigo vom Belgier,who in turn left us VA Quartz dei Templari,et al. Another dog who was highly touted years ago,was VA Ajax vom Haller Osning. Being the "best" son of VA Fando,one would have thought that he too would have been a top producer,especially given the genetics on his motherline that proceeded to Uran over Warro vom Huhnegrab,and the prolific producer Frenzi von der Steinhagerquelle ! Unfortunately,Ajax did not prove to be a dominant sire,with his highest rated offspring in the GHKL being a Kirschental bitch who,I believe was V25 at the Sieger Show some years ago. I am happy to see we have another Gustav here with us, some of the best posted recently on this forum, thanks. Ibrahim |
by Gustav on 10 September 2011 - 23:37 |
| I'm the same Gustav....lol....just glad to see informative dialogue. |
by Ibrahim on 10 September 2011 - 23:52 |
| Yes Sir, pardone my English, what I meant is dishlerner's post reminds me of your posts, and I took the liberty to call him another Gustav, you know how much I appreciate the wealth of info in your posts which I wish to see more of all the time. Ibrahim |
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