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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Hemangiosarcoma in GSDs...Do you know of any particular lines it runs in? (36 replies)
Hemangiosarcoma in GSDs...Do you know of any particular lines it runs in? by KariLJ80 on 08 August 2011 - 19:19 |
| This weekend I lost my 2nd GSD to Hemangiosarcoma. Both acted completely fine and then had very sudden onset symptoms...the typical presentation. With both of them the disease started in the spleen and metastasized. It is a horrible disease and the heartbreak I am feeling right now after having to face it again and lose another one of my girls is indescribeable. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any particular lines that Hemangiosarcoma is prevalent in. I know there is not a lot of research about this cancer, but I have found a lot of information to suggest a genetic component. Both of mine were females, one age 8, one age 9 and they both had the same maternal grandsire (Jeck vom Noricum). Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Kari |
by ggturner on 08 August 2011 - 19:26 |
| So sorry for your sad news! I don't know if it is inherited. We lost a 14 yr old terrier mix this summer to it. She had it in her spleen and liver. She began bleeding internally and having seizures so we put her down. Very sad as she was my daughter's dog. |
ggturner by TingiesandTails on 09 August 2011 - 05:29 |
| Very sorry for your loss. Did you already google: coat colour dogs genetics cancer ? There are many scientific studies out there that draw a connection between different types of cancer and the dark red hair colour. I would generally stay away from the dark red/black lines, which are "fairly" new in the show world. But that's just my conclusion and I can't speak against particular lines. |
TingiesandTails by Silbersee on 09 August 2011 - 10:30 |
| I am so sorry for your loss, Kari. Personally, I think that it is too far fetched to assume it was inherited because of Jeck as the common ancestor. He appears in most showline pedigrees nowadays. Tingies, with all due respect: If you put a profound statement up like yours you need to back it up with facts. Since you speak of many scientific studies, I am sure it should be very easy to post just a couple of links. I have only been into this for the past 20 years or so but I am sure others would have mentioned the "dark red" showline color as a cancer risk. Unbelievable!!! Again, if you post a link, I will even go through the trouble and translate it to post on a couple of German boards, so everybody can be warned, lol. A couple of years ago, we used to have really knowledgable people here on the PDB who had profound knowledge on GSD genetics but I guess times have changed and people move on. This board certainly has changed over the years. I will check back for answers and a more thorough explanation from Tingies to substantiate her/his opinion (?) on black and dark red GSDs. Even though it always seemed to me that there is no genetic difference between a black and tan or a black and red dog but I stand corrected and will certainly apologize to Tingies if necessary. Have a great day! |
Silbersee by TingiesandTails on 09 August 2011 - 15:03 |
| http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.genet.37.110801.143233 http://www.caninecancer.com/Mast.html http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707637823 http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/13/4/447.short Do you honestly think this would be announced by any breeder forum when you can make huge amount of money by selling those "fashionalbe coloured" dogs? Yes, I agree, many knowledgable people have left here because of the constant biggering going on... |
by TingiesandTails on 09 August 2011 - 15:20 |
http://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid/detail.php?record=346 - Older study done before the dog's genetic code was completely decifered - specifically mentioning the breed There is a German study: http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissertations/h_philipp09.pdf enough said.... |
by missbeeb on 09 August 2011 - 15:30 |
Sorry TT... I cannot see where there is any mention of a black & red/tan dog being more susceptible to cancer. It's pretty well known that white dogs and cats are more likely to get skin cancer... but red dogs?
Are you getting confused with red hair on humans? |
missbeeb by momosgarage on 09 August 2011 - 15:51 |
| missbeeb, one of the articles is in German and two others require access to the specific acedemic journal. The abstract is not the whole article and neither I nor TingiesandTails has permision to reproduce the article for you. You have to PAY for access. I still have access through my Univeristy and I assume TingiesandTails has a similar way to access them. Read the complete articles and THEN come back and comment, not before. I agree with TingiesandTails no breeder on the forum is going to announce any possibility of such being true. The Dark red and black shepherds with saddles are very very "fashionable coloured dogs". Outside of my club its all I see at AKC obedience trials. Besides pet owners, I would say anecdotally most active sport shepherds sold to people outside of schutzhund and government are in fact Dark red and black shepherds with saddles. Thats a lot of money to be lost in the market, so I assume it will be hush, hush until doomsday. I have heard the same thing anecdotally from three vets I have had over the years. They said Dark red and black shepherds with saddles seem to always be the ones that have some kind of cancer and/or malabsorption problems. Combine that anecdotal evidence with the articles listed by TingiesandTails and any would be buyer of such shepherds would have both a lot to consider and research before buying. I would be interested in hearing about specific lines also. People keep telling me that GSD with DDR lines tend to be very healthy. If DDR isn't all hype/fad and the health thing is true it would seem they are something worth seriously looking into (but they certainly won't be winning conformation). |
by BlackthornGSD on 09 August 2011 - 16:16 |
| Sadly, I've known many GSDs who are not black and red show dogs who have died from hemangiosarcoma. There is undoubtedly some genetic predisposition, but I think it's not a simple inheritance factor nor is it limited to one family or bloodline, much less one dog. I think the genes are spread throughout the breed. I've known of working line and show line and American line dogs who have died of hemangiosarcoma. It doesn't seem to run in families, especially. That is, if one dog from a litter dies of hemangio, it doesn't seem any more or less likely that other dogs in a litter will or that the parents died from it. I remember last year that there was a researcher collecting DNA samples on dogs with hemangiosarcoma, but I don't know if that study is still ongoing. Here's an article that talks about hemangio and cancer in specific breeds: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2680013/ This site mentions that more lightly pigmented dogs are more likely to get the less-lethal form of hemangio.... http://petidentasearch.com/hemangiosarcoma.html I still have access through my Univeristy and I assume TingiesandTails has a similar way to access them. Read the complete articles and THEN come back and comment, not before. I agree with TingiesandTails no breeder on the forum is going to announce any possibility of such being true. Surely you could quote some relevant passages and give the citation of the article that you specifically think supports this assertion? If there ever is a DNA test that will allow us to breed away from hemangio, it will become a very important test that will be widely used. It is a sudden, horrific death that occurs all too soon in our dogs' lives, and I have no doubt that almost every person who has ever loved and lost a dog in this breed will seek to minimize its occurence--once there is a way to do so. Christine |
BlackthornGSD by missbeeb on 09 August 2011 - 16:18 |
Since the vast majority of Shepherds (worldwide) ARE black & red / tan, it stands to reason that they are the ones Vets see most frequently, for any reason... that's just arithmetic.
It's no secret that certain lines are more likely to be prone to cancer... just like us humans... some families are plagued with it. I really think the notion that cancer is colour related (to red/tan) is at best, a little unlikely. Certain lines that HAPPEN to produce this colour... yeah, but nothing to do with the colour itself, per se. |
by missbeeb on 09 August 2011 - 16:23 |
I should have mentioned... I'm not a breeder and I have lost a bitch to this condition (9 years old) a VERY pale black and gold bitch.
|
by TingiesandTails on 09 August 2011 - 16:50 |
| Missbeeb, I'm sorry for your loss. The melanin receptor in the skin (MC1R) connected with (skin) cancer is the same in humans, dogs, mice etc. It is referred to in studies researching different diseases connected with coat colour (not only the colour red). Thanks for your post, momosgarage! Let me rephrase my above post for anyone that is not used to googleing/reading studies: Looking up studies referring to red coat colour, genetics, dogs on the internet one could lead to the conclusion that dogs with dark red coat colours are more susceptible to certain forms of cancer. With all respect to breeders who carefully select their breeding dogs, I personally don't think dark red is a healthy colour in any breed. Of course there is no mention of specific lines and I can just guess that would be a thesis upon itself. It surely would be interesting to read more research on the specific form of hemangiosarcoma and responsible genes. I'm sure there will be more studies coming up as the dog's genome is further researched. This is my last comment on this topic. |
by Aqua on 09 August 2011 - 16:50 |
| missbeeb wrote: " It's no secret that certain lines are more likely to be prone to cancer... just like us humans... some families are plagued with it. " Which lines are those and what kind of cancer(s) afflict them? |
by momosgarage on 09 August 2011 - 18:04 |
Surely you could quote some relevant passages and give the citation of the article that you specifically think supports this assertion? BlackthornGSD, you will have the same problem as we are discussing now. Acedemic articles cite other acedemic articles. If you can't read the ones TingiesandTails already posted, then you won't be able to follow up on any citations I post. Sorry to be a downer, but you either have access or you don't. Some local libraries pay for acedemic journal access and some local libraries are affiliated with nearby universities, you have to do your own research and figure out who has what. Its more than I can sum up within a two sentence reply in a forum. Best I can advise is to ask your local librarian for assistance, working from the articles TingiesandTails posted. I skimmed them already, its more than enough to get you started. Since the vast majority of Shepherds (worldwide) ARE black & red / tan, it stands to reason that they are the ones Vets see most frequently, for any reason...
Is this a factual statement? I never saw black & red shepherds as a kid in the 1980's. As far as I can tell they became really popular sometime in the 1990's. Are you saying in the USA or worlwide? I thought the regular old black & tan saddle was the most common. |
by BlackthornGSD on 09 August 2011 - 18:31 |
| BlackthornGSD, you will have the same problem as we are discussing now. Acedemic articles cite other acedemic articles. If you can't read the ones TingiesandTails already posted, then you won't be able to follow up on any citations I post. Sorry to be a downer, but you either have access or you don't. Some local libraries pay for acedemic journal access and some local libraries are affiliated with nearby universities, you have to do your own research and figure out who has what. Its more than I can sum up within a two sentence reply in a forum. Best I can advise is to ask your local librarian for assistance, working from the articles TingiesandTails posted. I skimmed them already, its more than enough to get you started. That makes no sense. I don't need access to anything for you to supply a supporting quote and an actual reference citation. Christine |
by missbeeb on 09 August 2011 - 18:39 |
Aqua... I still remember your support for Jante's nasty crapola when Zamp died, I have no time for him or his disciples, so I'll pass, where you're concerned. No intention to offend... just how I feel.
Momo' I have been around a little (a lot actually) longer than you, but I think I may not have made myself clear. When I say black & red / tan, I mean dogs with a black saddle... what do you mean please? I'm in the UK btw. |
by Red Sable on 09 August 2011 - 19:07 |
Hi missbeeb, I believe they mean the really red dogs that are now the rage. |
Red Sable by Karmen Byrd on 09 August 2011 - 19:31 |
| I have had three dogs die from Hemangiosarcoma...two of them one month apart so I have had my fair share of tragedy with this disease. Upon further research and talking to human doctors as well, hemangiosarcoma has been linked to vinyl chloride and benzene...many of which is found in plastics and water hoses. It certainly appears GSD and Goldens have a weakness to this disease as these breeds rank the highest with it. It's a devastating cancer and feel for anyone who has lost their dog to it. My condolences for your loss Kari Karmen Byrd |
Karmen Byrd by Donnerstorm on 09 August 2011 - 19:47 |
I have never heard of that type of cancer so I have no way to form an educated and informed opinion on it, so I will say nothing about it I did want to tell you Kari how very sorry I am for your loss. |
Donnerstorm by mollyandjack on 09 August 2011 - 21:48 |
| Sorry for your loss, Kari, that's a terrible thing to have to go through, especially twice. My dog is DDR/Czech lines and had hemangiosarcoma at 3.5 years. He's also a dark sable...not a lot of red there...I think the genetics of this type of cancer are poorly understood and it's hard to pinpoint any one cause of it. |
mollyandjack
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