German Shepherd Dog > agression or bad behaviour (47 replies)
by Vixen on 01 August 2011 - 21:50
|Steve, I do not even need to read further than your first sentence, - I did not say "Hold down" - how would that teach a puppy to remain laying down????? I might as well sit on him/her - that is actually RESTRAINT, and a puppy would obviously then not be able to get up, and certainly would not learn for himself that he is required to remain down!|
Suggesting that I do not have a clue in how to handle dogs - well I must have been dreaming about the dogs and people I meet, teach and train.
Steve, go to bed ..... don't forget to take your shoes off - feet should be safe in bed.
by troublelinx on 01 August 2011 - 23:15
|There is no way this person could possibly be serious. And the person is a breeder to boot?|
or she is just dumb as hell.
by Chaz Reinhold on 02 August 2011 - 03:36
|This is the type of post that keeps me coming back. I learn new things everyday. Just yesterday, I didn't know Pups bite. Steve, I have expensive shoes. No way in hell is my pup gonna chew a $30 pair of Chuck Taylor's.Will flip-flops work? OP, I don't use a newspaper anymore. That's so 90's. I use my laptop.|
by zmelli on 02 August 2011 - 04:45
|I had the same problem with a Pup in the past. I just suited up and held her down and let her know I was Boss. She quit biting at around 6 Months.|
by steve1 on 02 August 2011 - 05:06
|Sorry to the OP but you are not up to handling a dog of this breed and if you have any sense at all you will get a dog which is of a more amiable nature.|
Vixen All i can say is HELP to the people you train for as i said your one bit about FORCING or KEEPING a 10 WEEK old Puppy in a down postilion for ANY length of time says just how much you know about training dogs NIL in my book and most on here who have answered think the same.
I find that very disturbing indeed that you would treat a Puppy of that age in that manner. Do you periodically have a demonstration Puppy for your clients i would not put it past you the way you talk, and again i said THE VOICE and the way you HOLD yourself or PRESENT yourself to the DOG those two things alone will do the job,
Because you do not understand what it means when i say it shows your lack of knowledge with dogs it is a fact well it is over here that those two things make the difference between you being the boss or the Dog being boss of you and i am not going to spell it out again very important indeed,
I have not used those tactics you employ in training any dog whether it be in Sport, Sheep Herding or teaching Dogs to be Guide dogs for the Blind Folk, Now i am no Master dog trainer but i am not a dummy either, and i have the talents of some of the best trainers in the Dog world to call on or put me right should i go wrong and even the very best make mistakes no matter how long they have trained dogs and that was said to be by a 5 times world champion and they would certainly put you in your place very quickly indeed if they saw you treating a 10 week old puppy in such a manner, Now i have said all i am going to with you all the respect i had for you in the past went with your posting, to me you are a Yank and Crank trainer and you can keep your methods to yourself, My last reply to you on this subject you are not worth it any more
i do not carry a newpaper with me outdoors and my dogs live outdoors, If a Puppy goes to jump on me and i do not want it i say NO' in that voice and at the same time i bring my knee up so the Pup bumps into the knee and falls off they do not like it and a few times of this will stop them jumping on you, the knee bought up fast or with any force into the dog it is a just a barrier for the dog to knock against before it gets to you and send me over a pair of your expensive shoes mine come from the discount store
by Vixen on 02 August 2011 - 08:12
Steve, You are blinkered. Such horror in your mind that I should have the audacity to actually expect a puppy to learn to lay down (and remain so) at my request is abominable!!!! Poor puppy, he must have my foot firmly planted on his neck!!! Are you serious????? Puppies learn so much (given a chance) - You have no problem in continually 'house-training' a young pup - but of course that is different because you don't want a messy home!
By insulting me, you also insult the clients who attend my Clubs, or who I am required to visit. These people love their dogs and equally respect them too. I am sure you do know a certain amount about dog training, but 'training' i.e. 'exercises' are not sufficient to understand dogs, or indeed to place all your bets on 'obedience'!
What you obviously do not know or have not experienced with dogs - you declare rubbish! The sphere of my dedicated interest and experience, and consequence skills (which I make no apology for, because I feel politely proud to have the privilege of helping people and their dogs). That 'sphere' is wide and deep, going into a dog's world - fascinating, amazingly interesting and extremely rewarding.
Respect and Relationship goes far further than a dog performing specific exercises.
I therefore have the same pleasure in confirming that this will be my last message to you as well. (By the way, reference your last comment - respectfully and thankfully, I never say an Owner or dog are "not worth it" - even when I sometimes feel exactly that of the Owner)!
by steve1 on 02 August 2011 - 09:43
You say you prevent a 10 week old Puppy from getting up from a down for up to 30 minutes each day, you say PREVENT and not you or anyone else here is going to tell me that a Puppy of 10 weeks old will stay in a down for up to 30 minutes on its own accord NO; it will not so it is being held down or kept down and that it cannot be done without some force,
Pull the other leg Lady its got Bells on, You talk a good talk a lot of practice with your unsuspecting clients i guess But putting it into practice is different, As i said before you do not have a clue just a good talker. For me you are as i said a Yank and Crank handler nothing more and that practice went out a long time ago
If you think otherwise i will pay your fare to Belgium and then i will give you 11 week old Hektor and then you put him in a down on his own accord on a leash if you want to but you do not restrain him in any way with or without the leash and i will expect him to stay down for up to 30 minutes without getting up or showing any kind of stress, Then i will take you to the dog club and you can show the Guys and Girls there. So there you are Vixen prove your point,
However you will get nothing for coming over just a Hotel for the night and the flight, But you will have the chance to see what you are made of
I do not want to here that the Puppy in question would be put in a down in stages of learning to stay down remember this is supposed to be a Alfa Pup or unruly Pup at 10 weeks old the handler must watch it does not do a lot of damage to her i have a job to contain my laughter when i write that bit, It will probably will have never been in a down before because this is being done just to put this 10 WEEK old PUPPY in its pecking order of the so called PACK ORDER another two words never used over here in Belgium and Germany
If you come over and prove me wrong then i will put a full apology on here to you and leave this forum to the more knowledgeable people such as yourself, However if you fail then you do the same on here and apologize and you pay your own Fare Air and Hotel
by Vixen on 02 August 2011 - 10:56
|Steve, That is my job daily. To either rectify a problem behaviour (problems that vary considerably). Or to guide Owners in understanding their dogs, themselves with their dogs, and their dog's abilities. Plus Puppy Training - and learning to connect with a Puppy (from his/her viewpoint) is worth a weight in gold. I am proving my particular worth daily - which is why people attend my Club or recommend me to others.|
How many Instructors do you know who when a client contacts to ask about joining their Club, suggest not only that they firstly visit and watch a Class, but recommends they visit elsewhere too in order to compare? Connecting a relationship with a dog is becoming less and less! - and I feel it is almost necessary and helpful for dog Owners to witness this for themselves. There is a huge difference between genuine confidence of ability to share and help Owners to discover, and pompous bragging! That is why I feel it is important that I say to every person who enquires, to visit my Club and one or two others, to see just what is being offered, and the extent of learning to understand the language of dogs and their interaction with us.
Steve, which one was your "last message/post" - this one, or the one before????
You don't respect me, fine, I didn't ask you to.
Neither do I need to prove anything to you - my clients and their dogs do that for me.
by steve1 on 02 August 2011 - 12:35
Yes, i replied after i said finish but i did it on purpose just to call you out and i knew the outcome before i posted you had your chance to prove your point at my expense and when i say a thing like that i mean it i would have paid,
However you have chosen your well rehearsed words to counteract as expected if nothing else you are predictable now this post is the end on this thread,
Now i will go and put Hektor in a long Down no need for 30 minutes, 15 is okay for his BH.
The rest of the training for his BH is easy enough i reckon he will be ready to take the BH by the time he is 16 weeks old, OH YES' If Training animals was so cut and dried we would all turn out to be a lot of Trainers like VIXEN
by Duderino on 02 August 2011 - 13:08
|Steve1 you pillock. Up until now I have kind of brushed you off as an older gentleman who just loves to hear himself talk about his own dogs and chirp about "my baby daddy" and all of the world class trainers/handlers you hang out with. My guess is, they try and run and hide every time you show up. The statement that sent me over the top, besides the one about speaking to a dog in a soft voice, was the one about kneeing a puppy/dog for jumping on you. Since you are so eager to pay for people's transatlantic travel, I'll make the same offer, I'll pay for your trip over to the states and you let me knee you in the chest, just once. BTW, you're not going to need any luggage or a return ticket 'cuz all it takes is one. Ahhh, b(m)ad dogs and Englishmen.|
by Vixen on 02 August 2011 - 13:24
|Steve, I said it before, and will again, you are sadly blinkered. Where you got the impression that dog training/teaching was "cut & dried" is certainly NOT from me! Far from it, dogs are EXPERT in their behaviour with us. Sometimes we feel we are doing the training, but find they have turned it around. There is so much, it is impossible to become blase, dis-interested or bored. |
If you don't want to do a 30 minute Down, because the BH only requires 15 minutes, then fine, no problem with that. But why not consider challenging yourself and your dog a little further anyway? (Only a thought, not a criticism).
Dogs are also great Lie Detectors - they know your energy! Never insult a dog by thinking or denying it's ability to recognise truth and honesty during interaction.
Steve, you know what you know, so may I politely suggest you continue in doing what you know.
(Irrespective of the current exchange between us, people working and engaging with their dogs always wins for me - Therefore, I hope you and your young dog enjoy exciting years of discovery between you).
Never tread water, your dog certainly won't.
by troublelinx on 02 August 2011 - 16:05
|I am very interested in seeing a 10 week puppy do a long down stay and I would love to see a video of this, but at the same time it does not sound like an exciting video. |
I would also like to add the my newbord zero wee old puppy did an excellent long down stay
by Donnerstorm on 03 August 2011 - 00:55
|O.k. so what's the problem with bringing a knee up when your pup jumps on you???? I do it with mine don't have to say a word they figure it out quick now when one of mine come up to get attention they know they have to sit. If they jump it isn't going to be pleasant, and if they don't sit I will just walk off. I don't consider that abuse or cruel. My dogs know when I say something I mean do it and do it now. They don't get to think about it or take a message and get back to me later. Once you know what the command is if you do it I will pat you and say thank you, if you don't do it there will be a correction. Because they are well trained and can be trusted that ensures that they can go more places, and do more things meet more people. So which is meaner us actually taking control of our dogs so they can have full lives or people that don't give a correction and their dog only listens to them if they have a hot dog, so they don't come when called they can't walk on a leash and they bounce around like a rabbit every time they go somewhere. The fact is those dogs typically have behavior issues are skittish can not be socialized and are constantly stressed. My dogs prefer me over everyone else, love to be with me and are excited to be with me. Wait if the dog felt abused wouldn't it be skittish, nervous, and anxious?? Oh wait that's "hot dog" ppls dogs....hmmm....|
by steve1 on 03 August 2011 - 06:05
NO. They do not run and hide when i show up we get along great. and as for being Old and tiresome and you have just gone along with me because you think i am old that is insulting because that is what you are saying regards the talking about my dogs and the input i put on this forum etc,
To get to the point of talking to a dog in a soft mincy tone you will not get a dog to respect you or look to you if it does not respect you and you will not get respect by talking that way you do not have to shout or raise your voice i have not said that, What many of you do not get is the presence of yourself
Let me put it like this
You can walk along with your dog with your head down slouching along Your body then has NO bearing if you know what i mean.
BUT' if you stand up straight walk tall regardless of your height shoulders back head up you feel better yourself your dog notices these two different attitudes of the handler. But you evidently do not agree well they do over here and it is not just me or my idea it is the way the Top Guys work and try and teach new handlers but of course then what do they know,
i am giving some on here the benefit of there experiences not just mine but it seems they are not wanted or needed so i must stop doing it from now on
Now regards bringing up your knee i said you bring your knee UP' you do not knee the puppy or the dog it is the Dog or Puppy which bumps into your knee not you hitting the Puppy with your knee it is a basic and sure way of teaching a Puppy not to jump on you which is not good for you or the Pup again you did not read it right and here we go again you want to show me how much it hurts, well the way we do it does not hurt the Pup at all just suprise and it learns that i must not jump on people. But for you that is not enough
Well i do not have time to fly to the states we have some big trials this next month or two but i invite you over here at your expense if you wish to prove something to me and bring your knee up into my chest and i will see how it feels as you say, But you will have to reach my chest before you are on your back so it will work both ways this OLD Gentleman as you put it is not yet past it as you will find out if you come over and i will meet you at the Airport in the Lounge we need to go no further than there to do what you have come over for here is one old Guy who does not bother about tasting his own blood i have many times in the past it means nothing to me but you will find it a very hard job to do that i guarantee in fact i will make sure of it
I had not seen your post until this morning so i thought i had to reply that is only right and it is strange how things turn around on these threads, Donnerstorm agrees so one of you knows a bit about why it is done
by Duderino on 03 August 2011 - 15:55
|The difference between you and me and the way we train dogs is you have wasted 60 years of handling and I have learned from it. Funny, I speak to my dogs in conversational tones and find that they hear fairly well, no need to yell. My dogs have never failed to out during training or during a trial. I guess it's because my dogs respect my actions and understand our relationship, you on the other hand seem to still need a lot of help from others to limp through your training. Lots of yelling and posturing going on, I'm guessing hearing problems or just bad handling.|
The only time I will raise my voice to the dog is when the drive level is going up ie bitework. You may have to turn up the volume on this video to hear Bart's commands. As the dog loads and drive goes up, you will hear a little more substance to the voice but that's to be expected. Watch a video of Ivan Balabanov, no yelling, his dog's can hear too.
There is no need to scream and yell to an animal that hears 100x's better than we do. Let your actions represent leadership and direction. You can yell at your dog, I'll speak to mine and my obedience will be prettier to watch.
And to all the people who like to use knees to make up for bad training and poor skill, do your knees bend to the side and backwards? Don't your dogs ever jump on you from the side or from the rear? I'm thinking that you may need some orthopedic help with your joints, just a thought.
Steve1, gee thanks for the invitation but if it's all at my expense, I kinda don't need your invitation to travel. I'll let you know when I'm passing through.
by YogieBear on 03 August 2011 - 16:36
|Dogs will be Dogs and men will be boys...testosterone is getting deep on this thread...... Wy must boys fight to prove they are the bigger dog?|
by steve1 on 03 August 2011 - 16:39
|Yes please do let me know when you are passing through i look forwards to it with great relish|
Now it is about time youngster you read the posts correctly because you are repeatedly reading what you want them to read and NOT what is in them so open up your Bloody eyes and read the posts as they are or keep quiet and do not reply because now you are becoming tiresome with your stupid answers
NO where have i said i raise my voice or shout at a Dog, you are making it up you probably live in Cuckoo land .
I said you speak in a commanding voice that does not mean shouting and raising your voice it is the same volume as normal but in a commanding way to make the Pup look at you and think and if you do not know how to do that then you do not know the basices of Dog Training and i think you do not because you cannot understand.
That also applies to the way you hold yourself you do not see top Competitors slouching along with there heads hung down, They stand up Straight shoulders back head up in a commanding way they know who they are and there body language is saying that to there dog, they are alert they have a presence about them and this refects on how the Dog acts,
These are the first things drummed into a beginner with dogs over here and another one is Loose Leash those three things can put a new dog handler on his or her way or if they fail to go along then they struggle
Now i have repeated myself several times but i think you are being funny, But you would prefer i expect to keep a 10 WEEK OLD Puppy in a Down for 30 minutes that more your mark and think you have done a wondeful thing and be proud of yourself
Some Years ago a top trainer from here was on this Forum, He gave a lot of advice but he was shouted down by people such as yourself so he gave it up as a bad job, Now i am not in his class but i say what goes on over here and it comes from the best there is in Belgium i say it as it is done over here and for a country who you can get into a corner of one of your states they have done exceptionally well with dogs, I do not give a shit if anyone takes notice and the Guy was correct when he told me that the Dog people in the USA think they are the best dog trainers in the world they think they have the best and they think they know it all and no one will ever change them, He said even when he goes over to do a seminar or train people they at times start to tell him. So he said there is nothing he can say to change some of the people in the USA However i did not believe him but i sure do now with some on here thank goodness not all are like you and some of the other know alls on here, I guess that is why not many from this side of the water ever come on this forum.
by Duderino on 03 August 2011 - 18:16
Most Dog training is done by the tone of your commands talk to a dog in a mincy soft voice you will lose out the dog will run youThose were your words. As far as the my country's better than you country argument, I won't even get into that. I do know that my country kicked your country out 235 years ago and it was the best thing we ever did.
BTW, I took a dog that I raised from 8 weeks old to a World Championship, how about you? My next goal is to do it with a dog that I bred, raised and trained. By breeding I mean I own both of the parents and the dog was born here in my whelping room and from day 1, the dog has not been out of my hands. How about you?
by Duderino on 03 August 2011 - 18:23
|Funny, I can communicate with my dog and never say a word. Language means nothing to a dog, it's all about comfort or discomfort, reward or correction, reward or withholding reward. You can be as loud or commanding as you want but if you are inconsistent and unclear in your communication, you sir, will fail.|
by steve1 on 03 August 2011 - 20:55
|You are still on about being LOUD where do you read this i told you to read the posts correctly if you have a problem, read more slowly so your brain can take it in You are like you said to me a pillock, and remember 140 plus dogs get to a world championship where did you finish and as you are so glib what year, in what sport and what is your real name so i can check it up so put it on here. Regarding you kicking the Butt of the British why are you bringing up Wars for on this thread for what reason, well you started something so we will carry on with it what the hell do you think the USA is a lot of British and Irish descent of long past, The ONLY thing you got going for you is that your are a bigger nation in circumference, area. and you have an even bigger mouth, And also remember after some persuasion you joined us a year late in WW11 but not before the Japanese kicked your butt in Pearl Harbor, Since that time the UK has held the bloody hand of the USA in all there Fighting of different countries except Vietnam in which you got your Asses kicked good and proper, and now to the present day.|
What now, the USA have spent more than they earn, a lot going on fighting other nations nothing to do with them and there Stupid Allies the British join in with them what for, The USA does not need help in anything they know it all done it all now nearly Bankrupt, and what have you done in all this fighting i may ask Sonny, have you done your duty for your country have you fought and killed others defending there birthright, You start something and we will finish it for you have picked on the right Bastard to do it with for i have been through it and taken lives of others doing the same job and i have seen more than a lot have of the misery it has caused, not at all good or nothing to be proud of,
You bring up Wars on a dog thread for what reason to try and cause problems well you are going the right way about it so now what have you done to help your country or defend it except brag, MY last to you, You are not worth talking to as the trainer said you are one who knows it all and you live in your own little cocoon of (I am the Man) pure arrogance
MY' sincere apologies to you Guys in the USA on this outburst of mine to one of your so called countrymen he is the sort that give a great Nation a bad name and the ordinary people like yourselves get tarred with the same brush which is unfair, i do not look at the people in your country that way just stating facts which have happened through time The USA and the UK are supposed to be working together except that Prats like Dudering give it all a bad name just to try and get the upper hand, Well if he has to stoop to that level then YES' he can have the Upper hand it will fit his EGO I am through with this thread