German Shepherd Dog > Thoughts on aggressive dominate female (14 replies)
Thoughts on aggressive dominate female
by slemard on 19 July 2011 - 10:13
I meet this almost 4 year old bitch this past weekend. Excellent bloodlines - West German show with herding titles with dominate strong temperments. She is the pack leader on her owners property. She is beautiful... Problem is she never been really socialize. She has some basic Obedience but doesn't like people other than her owner. So while I was working with her she was muzzled. after awhile of treats and healing treats and healing, I felt comfortable enough to take the muzzle off. Still treat and heal.. treat and heal. She did good until I was out of treats. She first gave a quick grab to my pants (lower leg). I ignored it and maybe I shouldn't. Then a few minutes later she grab my thigh (just a grab not a bite of breaking skin) she didn't even rip my pants. Idk... Was interested in thoughts of those of you that have been training for some time. Is there hope for this dog or would she be a waste of my time. I am so torn to see such a great dog turn out like this. I am excited about the idea of the challenge but really feel I wouldn't get far with her staying where she is at for the sessions. If it is possible to help her with people I feel I need to take her out of her element. Eager to hear your thoughts. Thanks
by Jeff Oehlsen on 19 July 2011 - 10:25
|They told you she was aggressive and you didn't have a leash and collar on her ? Treats do nothing to address the issue at hand. Yes, you should be training her somewhere other than at her home. You did not say if you have worked with a dog like this before or not. |
Typically, what you saw there were experimental bites to see what you would do. You did nothing, so what did you teach her ?
by ALPHAPUP on 19 July 2011 - 12:46
|i think you leave out other aspects /.... this dog is not merely aggressive , and dominant.. she is il- mannered and a spoiled brat !! aside from lack of socialization .. she just thinks she can do what she wants to do !! i liken this to a teenager , spoiled brought up , no manners , arrogant and thinks it can get it's way without having to offer anything in return .. NO .. if that dog WANTED to BITE you .. at 4 yrs old it surely would have !! i have worked aggressive , very defensive insecure dogs .... this as you described is not the norm !! after having interacted with you .... obviuosly she realized you were no threat !!- and that is proven in that , she not only did not bite you but the bites , if intended to be bites, may have been non -relenting .. there are many other commentries- but i was not there to see .. HUH .. she could just have been dog-handling you sort to speak .. simply .. because the treats run out- she was controlling you , ? protesting .. ... who knows .. again i was not there to "SEE HER".|
if you keep this dog in your company .. she needs attitude adjustment , rank order .. not advocating it being a blantant physical interaction ... remeber .. as i wrote in another thread ... you control the dog with your mind ... and influence the dog's mind that it learns it's place, manners and self control !! you are the one that will control every single aspect of this dog , no matter how slight it may be .. such as .. i would control this dog as it even moves it's head - control where it looks , when it looks , , where it goes ,, when & how it eats .. etc. i hear ... OBEDIENCE... that is just a so called watered down word it is so ridiculous !! dogs , in a manner of speaking , read your thoughts !! i will use my eyes and talk to dogs in that respect !! applicable here .. it is not just about , dog sit, down , stand .. your whole demeanor , your presence , your attitude .. [ this is what i was getting at , in the 'horse whisperer thread posted here] what you decide you do /don't do and what you decide the dog does/does not.. . this is not about emotion , battle of wills .. it is about your realtionship to each other .. that dog is going to respect you [ which by putting it's mouth on you was the furthest thing from that]. it is going to realize that it lives and it survives by you fulfilling it's needs. the RAMBO menatlity is going to be extinguished !! you are going to have to shape that dog's attitude and outlook . it will realize , in a kind way i hope , that you are boss and it takes it's direction from you ..[ that is obedience .. a way of living it's life]
by slemard on 19 July 2011 - 13:28
Thanks for the comments
by troublelinx on 19 July 2011 - 13:37
|You said "I am so torn to see such a great dog turn out like this"|
I believe that dogs like this are born this way. Not a result of socialization but rather a genetic issue. I will say though that if she were properly socialized at a young age that her issues may be less so but still an issue in certian situations.
I would wonder what is it that the owner wants to acomplish?
Does the dog respect the owner?
Will the dog bite the owner?
My first reaction would have been to "hang" the dog. I believe that the dog wanted to let you know that she just was not happy with you. Doent want to deal with you or anyone, unless ofcourse you have "scooby snacks" asides from that she decided to test her "choppers". If you kept going long enough it is probably that you would have gotten a real bite not a nip.
Realizing that clients with these dog problems are fearful to use corrections, you may have to laydown the law with the client. Just let them know what will happen if she tries this again. The dog is "punking" you. Deal with this quiclky. Although it is a good way to loose clientel.
I am no stranger to using treats. Years ago I use to deliver and pick up security dogs. these were not strong dogs. More like descrtbed above insecure , dominate, dangerous. I had to be careful how I handled the dogs. for example if the dog was off leash and it was time to take the dog to the van, you had to just grab the leash quickley and start walking. If you were to look at the dog, slowly grab the leash without attitude, guarenteed you would get bitten. Also the van had a door that would get stuck at times. One time in particular one Rott growled at me the the rest followed her direction. I always kept hotdogs in my pocket for a situation like this. Iwas able to distract the dogs with the hotdogs while i got the door unstuck. This did not fix anythink but it is as they say like "putting lipstick on a pig"
Another thing we would do is to put 2 choke collars on the dog and a leash on each choke collar. Then 2 people standing on opposite sides holds a leash. They can give slack to the dog or take slack away. All the while you safely bark commands. In addition you can use a stationary pole inplace of one person, with a leash on the ploe.
by troublelinx on 19 July 2011 - 13:41
|You have to move with a natural sureness and have a calmness and confidence to yourself. If you literally halfstep towards her or hesitate before grabing the leash or giving a command, it may be the anicedent to a bite.|
Also I dont think that you worked with the dog enough sessions to take the muzzle off. In addition she should have a wire muzzle not a cloth muzzle on. Not sure what type you are using
by slemard on 19 July 2011 - 13:41
|Thanks for your comments..|
@Jeff - Yes I had a leash and collar on her. No, I have no experience working with this type of behavior. I did correct her after her second attempt. Then we took another 10 paces and I handed her over to her owner where she immediately upon return went to barking and growling at me.
@alphapup - I agree with you thoughts on her. and if she wanted to bite me she so could have. I did misuse the work Obedience - She sort of knows sit, heal, down - although owner had to give command more than once.
I think this dog believes and probably is her pack leader not her owner. I didn't find her crazy in mind. I guess that's why I keep thinking about it and posted on here rather than walk away thinking she is a lost cause. I have the possibility to get this dog. Should I - I guess is the question? what would you do? How much work everyday would in your opinion need to be invested. Could she ever be able to walk in a mall or at a training field etc. Could she ever be trusted around our family?
by ALPHAPUP on 19 July 2011 - 15:20
|questions , questions ... because ... there is more than one issue you have to address. 1. how experienced are YOU ?? you would have to implement those things i previuosly dfiscussed .. Now .. it is not what i hear or seee in life , but what i do not hear and see that i am tuned to : you handed the leash back to the owner .. SO - why did the dog act like that and what happend during and after that exhibit of that behavior .. e.g if ever one of my dogs acted like that , faster than it can blink .. i not react but respond , " down" - " stop it". what did the owner do.. this gives me the impression if 1. can you manage the dog - adjust the dog to paying heed to you then .. and even then .... 2. that behavior you just wrote of, is what you can expect too , if you don't address that type of behavior to people other than yourself - strangeres to you or your family .. can you channel that , address that issue too ? 3. could you get a dog like that to walk etc. .. with the proper handling and interacting .. i would say yes.. [ but - you have to know what to do , be able to do it]..now re: - trust ... i would say ... that is something that you can only comment on as in better assessing the dog and/or to what degree you change the dog or it changes itself .. my answer would be on that note .. maybe ... maybe not ... BTW .. even with the BEST TRAINED dog, Best Temperament in a dog .. i would advocate the dog is always supervised around young people or children !!- that is just a given fundamental !!|
by SitasMom on 19 July 2011 - 15:31
What you discribe sounds to me like a strong minded 8 to 12 week pup in an adult's body. Was this dog ever taught not to nip and bite as a youngster? Was it let to run with its mama (assuming she is "save") to learn to be polite? Was it ever given better things (tugs and toys) as alternatives? Interesting issues that this dog has - including an overly premissive owner - too bad for the dog.
If you don't have a whole lot of experience, find a trainer or behaviorist who can make the determination for you. Ask local clubs for referrals and sellect wisely. This issue doesn't seem like something that can be fixed with an alpha roll and rough handling.
If they are able to teach this dog to be less mouthy (whether by habbit or domination) and can work with it in social settings, then they can train you. This will cost you time and money and there are no guarantees. Or better yet, there are PLENTY of dogs on the market that do not have any "issues", find one of theses instead.
by slemard on 19 July 2011 - 15:57
|I apologize for the double posting - Thought I hit cancel instead.|
I appreicate everyones comments -
@troublelinx - She had a leather muzzle and you are right, I should of keep it on. I do believe the owner is fearful of corrections.
@ alphapup - When I handed the leash to the owner she started walking her back to her kennel. I was alittle behind the dog. I'm not sure what set her off. I started walking in the same direction - she didn't want me to follow??? Idk. The owner told her to stop it but she didn't even after repeated commands.
@ sitasmom - I would have to agree - I don't think this dog was ever taught those thing. And as much as I would like to try and help the dog, I probably couldn't make the time that would be needed.
Thank everyone for your comments - I guess I should just let it go. It is such a shame. :( - Maybe one day when I have had more experience under my belt and am set up to take on such a project.
I am going to the training field tonight... Will ask around but anyone on here know of someone in the central Florida area that has experience with this. I would like to get in touch with them.
by troublelinx on 19 July 2011 - 16:18
|I dont know that I would give up. How many people out there learned something by learning what not to do. Granted you may take a bite or two before figuring how not to get bitten. Remember flesh will grow back. |
Also following behind this dog is kind of like petting a horse or dog from behind, only magnified. BTW of that subject when dealing with this dog dont give him frontal body posture nor lots of eye contact, lookover the dogs head or at his side. I only say this because I dont think you can read the body language of the dog. I fully believe that before the bite he is giving you a body language warning, often times this language will include the dog giving you direct eye contact.
This dog needs tons of training.
@ SitasMom, It seems that owners ask for help after multiple bites to the innocent and things are totally out of controll. The biggest problem with this is that they dont see how they mande a genetic issue only much worse. Then they look for pro help. But they want you to fix the problem and then they think they can continue with their dog owner habits that led to the dogs problems. I have seen this more times than I care to recall.
I dont suggest it for this owner. But I have seen a few dogs similar to this one cured through PP training. 1.It teaches the owner handeling skills. 2. The dog gets lots of OB training. 3. Owner gets well educated in dog behavior.
by troublelinx on 19 July 2011 - 16:20
|It is good to see people helping for a change and not tearing people down. Hugs from me to the women and hand shakes to the fellas|
by Bundishep on 19 July 2011 - 21:25
If the owner does not want for you to deal with the dog whatever it takes for her to be brought back into normal acceptable behavor then your hands are tied and of cousre you need to let the dog know that you are a friend not a foe in the beginning to gain trust with the dog with the muzzle still on which it sounded like you where doing in the beginning.Some very good training ideas and control ideas have already been mentioned
by Red Sable on 20 July 2011 - 00:21
|She sounds like a fiesty one. It is dogs like this you learn the most from.|
by alaman on 20 July 2011 - 02:01
|It's really rather simple. You need to exercise your authority. When the dog recognizes your authority, the battle is won and the training becomes simple. Works every time, even with dogs that have bitten people. Until she recognizes your authority, you will never control her and all the leashes and collars in the world will be useless.|