German Shepherd Dog > Supplements ...Is this Holistic Vet Crazy???? (22 replies)
Supplements ...Is this Holistic Vet Crazy????
by circuited on 09 July 2011 - 23:53
My husband has taken our two year old GDS to a Holistic Vet. The vet puts different things, like the food or dog eats and carpet ... and something with metal....all kinds of things to test if our dog has some problems going on where he needs supplements in his diet. Our dog has skin allergies that a dog allergist could not get under control. A person told my husband to go to this holistic guy…I could not believe what I was told he does. His tech touches our dog with items and also is touching this Vet and if his arm goes up or down he decides what your dog needs. Never blood test this is all done through his arm????????? Our dog is now taking 12 different supplements and seem one is added each time my husband takes our dog. I think this is a bunch of crap….. My husband is a very smart man..Usually….please tell me what you think…can all these supplements hurt our dog? Last time his arm told him my dogs liver was working up to full function…his arm told him this.
by GSD Trip on 10 July 2011 - 02:27
quack, quack, quack. lol
by jc.carroll on 10 July 2011 - 02:33
|It's called Kinesiology. |
Wendy Volhard, same one who came up with that well known puppy aptitude test, makes great mention of it in her book "Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog." She says she has had great success with it, and has been promoting it since the 1980s, despite skepticism from others.
It opperates, theoretically, on the basic principle of muscle-testing and energy transfer. Basically, one person touches the patient, while another tries to push the tester's arm down. If they can easily, it indicates a weakness or allergy in the patient is being transfered to the tester.
Typically it's the deltoid muscle that's used because, according to Wendy, it locks into the shoulder joint. According to the theory, a healthy muscle from a healthy energy transfer withstands a lot of pressure. A weak muscle folds easily.
The doctor or vet focuses on something, kind of like a yes or know question to the patient, and then has someone push on his arm... or he pushes on the tester's arm... and if it goes down that shows whatever the doctor's asking has a negative effect. Something like "Fido, are you allegic to corn?" Arm goes down, and according to theory, then apparently Fido has issues processing corn.
I'm pretty into the whole Holistic scene, but I take everything with a degree of skepticism. Of course, I'm also respectfully skeptical of conventional chemical medication as well. I'm up in the air as to whether or not kinesiology is valid or not; same way I feel about iridology -- a technique that guages health by looking at and for specs of unnusual color in the iris of the eye -- and other practices.
I guess my basic view on a lot of the more obscure holistic diagnosis tools is: if it's used and the treatment yields positive results, great! However, just because it's "natural" doesn't mean it's any more effective than conventional medication. At the end of the day, whatever works best with the least side-effects is what I consider the best treatment.
Sounds like, from your story, it ain't working out so well. Maybe time to find a new vet.
by DogisGood on 10 July 2011 - 02:41
|A friend of mine had a bad experience with a veterinary homeopath who was NOT a DVM. Make sure the person you're dealing with IS a DVM. Sometimes folks who are in natural medicine aren't too quick to dispel the misconceptiont that they're actual doctors. |
For the record, I've used holistic vets with a lot of success, but they haven't done the kinesiology thing.
by jc.carroll on 10 July 2011 - 02:58
|Dogis brings up a great point!|
If I stand correctly, in many states you don't need any sort of licensing to become a homeopath for humans or animals. Maybe that's changed. When I was studying under a few people, it was pretty much homeopath OR doctor (or vet). Not a lot of crossing over between the two. Nice that's changing at least ^_^ I was never big into kinesiology. Seemed too much like a human Magic 8Ball, with two much room for the tester's subconscious to affect results. Some theories say you don't even need to touch the patient with the item in question, just visualize it or write it on a piece of paper and hold it on the patient to get the same results. I am open-minded about testing with actual items, but by-proxy I start becoming more skeptical. Too many bridges and proxies in the energy transference. I am much more receiving to direct links than fillers.
by von Harasymtzuk on 10 July 2011 - 03:06
|I will tell you the same thing I told others, and it took me years of studying to figure this stuff out...every dog's digestive system is different so kibble may be a factor.|
My first German Shepherd had such bad skin problems, her skin would become bloody raw..the only thing that helped was Cephalexin but it always came back, spent thousands trying to cure her but no vet could then I took over, it got so bad she was either going to have to be cured or put down. Hopefully what I used to cure my first dog will help yours....every dog is different....what I have listed below is highly cost efficient, use everyday for the rest of the dog's life.
Wholistic Salmon Oil (It's a brand can be bought from k9power and other places) helps with more then just skin
Enzymes (Prozyme) supports a healthy digestive system, even with premium kibble is cooked, killing enzymes needed to digest nutrients, helps to keep skin issues at bay or cure them, among other things like prevention of boat, etc.
Vitamin C Powder Of course a natural antioxident and fights off infection...can be bought by k9power "Wholistic Ester-C" or Azmira's "Super C Powder"
and most importantly Probiotics... also helps A LOT with allergies it puts the good bacteria necessary back into your dog's immune system so that they can fight yeast overgrowth, disease and infection...it's especially useful before, during and after antibiotics since not only do antibiotics kill the bad bacteria but the good, so once the dog is off of the antibiotics, your dog's immune system is defenseless and vulnerable. For Probiotics I would get Miracle Probiotic.....use all of these suupplements everyday. There are other supplements as well that I have had good success with, Aller'G Free by Azmira, and if Holistic Salmon Oil doesn't have enough vitamin E in it, don't hesitate to add more.
Please don't hesitate to contact me as I have been there before and know how vets can be con artists.
What kind of kibble are you using?
by starrchar on 10 July 2011 - 03:16
As other's have said, you need to find out if the practitioner is a DVM. If so, what have you got to lose other than some money? The traditional approach hasn't worked, so it's worth exploring other options. How long has your dog been on the supplements? It will take time for the supplements to work, possibly a month or more. Of course there is no guarantee, just as there is no guarantee with traditional treatments.
by Abby Normal on 10 July 2011 - 07:49
|Am curious as to what supplements your dog is actually now on. It would be useful to list them.|
I am in the UK and have a holistic vet (qualified DVM). He treats homeopathically as well as conventionally depending on what the situation/condition demands. TBH I would look at him as if he were a nut if he did kinesiology! but he hasn't (so far). However, if I was desperate I would be open to try anything so long as it wasn't going to harm my dog.
I'm with von H on this, but I would also switch from any kind of processed food to raw feeding.
by steve1 on 10 July 2011 - 08:38
|What a load of twaddle regarding the touching of an arm to test this and that etc|
I am refedeting to ic carrolls post, Not that i am getting on at he or she because that person is just explaining it the way they have probably read about it, IT is the content of what has been said that i am refering to
I can tell you and it matters not if you are a muscle bound man or a puny one, i will guarantee that if you stand against a wall i can touch you with ONE Finger on a certain part of your body and you will not be able to move lift an arm, leg or head or anywhere else in your body you will remain in the same postilion against the wall until i take my finger away. you will feel no pain before or after unless i apply pressure on my finger above then of course you will, but move a muscle or even twitch a finger you will not be able to
If a Dog has skin problems it is probably due to the feeding with grains in the diet, and the environment in its living conditions, So change both and you should see an improvement
by circuited on 10 July 2011 - 21:57
I thank all of you for your replies.
Yes, the this Holistic (kinesiology) man is a DMV he had a regular vet practice and said he just decided to try this.
Our dog is a GSD from Germany, is in Schutzhund Training, he won the Mid Eastern Regional’s and he was an excellent dog with all the drive you could ever want. His future in Schutzhund was very promising
The Dog Food he eats NOW is Orijen 6 Fish Formula.
List of his Supplements:
Canine Hepatic Support
Lactic Acid Yeast
Metagenics Glutagenics Powder
Tuna Omega-3 Oil
He also has to take Temaril P Trimeprazine/Prednisolone because even with all the Supplements his itching would be so bad he gets sores.
Also he is becoming very cagey about letting people touch him, his includes me and my husband, the dog growls. I believe that touching him may cause pain or upset his skin to where he itches.
Would like to hear what you think.
by Abby Normal on 10 July 2011 - 22:51
|Sorry, I don't know many of those supplements, perhaps because you are in the US.|
In respect of the growling, steroids (prednisolone) are known to induce aggression as a side effect., certainly in people so it may well be the same in dogs. Steroids are usually used very short term because of the numerous bad side effects from them, and they also cause thinning of the skin which perhaps may make him more sensitive to touch. I guess that depends how long he's been on them and at what dosage.
I really would change the diet as a first step, it can often have a marked effect on health problems, especially skin. While Orijen is a good food it is a processed food. I would opt for a completely raw diet with no carbs in it at all (that's what mine have been on for years), along with liquidised vegetables a couple of time a week. So long as you can easily source a variety of raw meat and bones it is also much easier than some think to feed this way.
by Two Moons on 12 July 2011 - 03:40
This is so sad.
Allergies are genetic problems but they can be identified and delt with,
with a little common sense and some patience.
Please don't feed your dog all that crap, I consider it abuse.
by DogisGood on 12 July 2011 - 07:03
|Try a prey model raw diet. It's cheap (in my area), relatively easy and could really help your pup.|
by von Harasymtzuk on 12 July 2011 - 08:43
|As I posted above, try those supplements. I've cured many dogs with that small list, not all but most, every dog is different.|
The Multizyme...bleh, Multi anything rarely has enough of what the dog needs.
I'm surprised this Holistic person has the dog on Yeast considering some dogs are allergic to yeast.
Honestly, if it hasn't helped...they are eating your money.
I really think you should try what I listed above, the Wholistic Salmon Oil (brand name), it's not like Grizzly's, your dog will need a half a teaspoon or for large dogs a teaspoon per day. I also forgot to mention kelp (also a great help for allergies) added vitamins and minerals, I like Wholistic Seablend from k9power, where you can purchase the Wholistic Salmon Oil....these items are so cost efficient to give everyday, so cheap in fact I give it to all of my adults and puppies.
Orijen is a great kibble, but like other premium kibble, it's processed so the dog is losing a lot of nutrients, enzymes are important for a dog's digestive/immune system and for allergies but premium or not, processed = dead nutrients.
Raw is the best way to go, I would give it to my dogs but it's too expensive in my state. If you don't to go raw you may not have to if you give the natural supplements a shot...some of the dogs I have dealt with, once on the supplements it doesn't matter what kibble they are on, including my own dog who suffered for years, she was very food sensitive until we got her on these supplements.
If your dog likes carrots and apples, chop them up into tiny pieces (not the pit) or blend them, this will give your dog some enzymes, don't give it to your dog as a whole carrot, it will be easier for him to digest the enzymes if they are chopped up. Plain yogurt has some probiotics in it but not nearly enough, you need several million CFU's or perferably 1 billion in the probiotic supplement which the brand Miracle Probiotic provides, it's also important that they GUARANTEE the CFU amount.
All I can do is offer my personal experiences and success from the past 6-7 years with allergies and helping others., I really hope your dog gets better.
I don't believe allergies are purely genetic. A pup from my litter (I told the buyer I did not trust her vet and I never met him and she hadn't even taken the pup to the vet yet) he gave the pup all kinds of shots all in one day, rabies, lyme, a 4th set of puppy shots, I vaccinated the pup for her, all 3 sets, I told her to make sure to tell him, she did but "just incase" he gave a 7 way shot to the pup, I had given the 5 way about a week before, and he also vaccinated for 1-2 other things that were not necessary, can't remember...the pup got sick and has all kinds of problems ever since, digestive disorders, staph....no other pup out of that litter had any problem, I made sure to contact everyone because the last thing I want to do is pass on allergy lines....that's the dirty little secret to the dog world. I think the vet screwed up her pup....his immune system is really screwed up, I'm in DE they are up in CT, I had them put the dog on raw, and the supplements, but they talked to a holistic vet about adding weird proteins and stuff and took the dog off of the supplements because her new vet said so...she wouldn't listen to me.... she contacted me a few days ago (the pup is now a dog almost 2 they are always my puppies to me) to tell me that the "staph" was never cured but held at bay then suddenly returned full force, and that they have to apply ointment daily or all of his fur will fall off. I know only one dog out of the litter could have gotten the bad end of the deal but I've had 2 and no dogs have had any of the symp
by DogisGood on 12 July 2011 - 18:09
|von Harasymtzuk, that really sucks about the pup! =[ That vet was just out to make a buck. Sad the dog had to suffer.|
by brynjulf on 12 July 2011 - 18:23
|WAYYYYYYY to many supplements. Try your dog on the kibble for a minimum of 8 weeks. You are using a top top top quality kibble and could be messing up the ratios with the supplements. Stick to the basics when feeding. I feed raw as I know what is in it. Orejin is a great kibble but can run too hot for some dogs. My dacshund darn near chewed her feet off on the food. Back to raw and she can walk again. I think some people who want to stick with the Orejin type foods have gone to the Acana for this reason :)|
by starrchar on 12 July 2011 - 21:34
|First of all, giving these supplements is far from abuse. Secondly, allergies are a sign of a weakened immune system. I find it very interesting that when a breeder produces a pup with allergies they claim none of their other dogs have ever had a problem and blame it on the pup's new owner. Yet, if another breeder produces a pup/dog that has allergies it is clearly genetic and a result of poor breeding. The truth is, many times the cause is genetics, but there can be other environmental factors that can contribute to a dog having a compromised immune system such as over-vaccinating, flea and tick preventive products, etc. of the dog itself and/ or the parents. Generation after generation of dogs being slammed with too many vaccinations and toxins from various products eventually takes it's toll. No matter the cause we all want to do whatever we can to help our pets and if traditional medicine doesn't work it is only natural to look elsewhere for something that will work. |
I am not an expert, but am somewhat familiar with alternative medicine. Most of these products you are giving your dog are formulated to help the digestive tract, aid in absorbtion of nutrients, cleanse the body of toxins, provide extra nutrients and boost the immune system. There is certainly nothing that can hurt your dog. I know both people and animals that have been helped by alternative medicine through the use of supplements and herbs, along with a diet change. I know two highly respected veterinarians that practice a combination of conventional and alternative medicine and they use similar products to what you are giving your dog.
I have an allergy dog. What helped my dog was a raw diet, digestive enzymes, probiotic, Salmon oil and various herbs to build the immune system and cleanse the liver.
by von Harasymtzuk on 12 July 2011 - 22:43
I wasn't blaming the owner, I went through hell with my very first GSD pack, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, I contacted every puppy owner from that litter no one else has any of the problems she described. I told her I believed all of these vaccinations (Flea/Tick prevention and heartworm protection) screwed him up. He was in good shape when he left here, after he left the vets he was chronically ill, stools soft, staph infections, ear infections, all kinds of stuff, the dog was clearly over vaccinated, I feel bad. I got her on raw but her new vet who apparently knows better then me (I'm sorry but some vets just really don't know what they are doing)advised against any supplements but instead adding all different kinds of odd proteins and other things, I advised against it, didn't work, she finally got some supplements but the wrong kinds, it was a weaker kind with no guarantee of the CFU per serving. I think the way the vet was out for money and caused long term or permanent damage to his immune/digestive system and the antibiotics all the time did not help, when the good bacteria wasn't being put back in. The dog was fine for a while, she said it started just recently, said it mainly occurs between his elbows, belly, inner/outer hips) but has a few spots on his back, from the areas she described I asked "What did you use on your grass?" Some kind of stuff to make it healthy, apparently not so healthy for your dog.
But as you said, Wholistic Salmon Oil, Enzymes, Probiotics (I like Miracle Probiotic (powder, goes further and more CFU guaranteed) and Vetri-Probiotic, pill form, both have 1 billion CFU, if you choose a different brand make sure it has at least 1 billion CFU, but definitely add the Vitamin C, and a pinch of Kelp (Wholistic Seablend) Even many people who use raw, well most use supplements. So before you go spending more money at the vets, just try the stuff.
Oh a topical ointment I love Dr Roses Remedies, all natural, my mom even uses it on her hands for lotion, good stuff.
A woman returned my Siberian that I had sold (I was hoping he would take to another family because he didn't like my male German Shepherd, felt he was unhappy) she bathed him with HERTZ, he started gnawing at his legs/paws/hips/back, it was itching him to death, she didn't contact me, I screened her too as always, I think she's a great girl just inexperienced, sometimes you just don't know...I tell people if you have any questions, concerns about training or health to contact me anytime day or night, sometimes I don't even know why I bother, they never listen. Sibes are full of personality, he wanted his pack back, he pissed everywhere, tore a hole through her apartment door, ripped up the carpet, took a poopy in her bed, and the MOST FUN thing for him to do is poop then hide it with your favorite pair of undies, bra or shirt, I have a nickname for what he does. CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN POOPIE!
I love him to death didn't want to sell him but I thought he was unhappy here, he was always so spiteful because of my male, but his temperament has changed siince I got him back...I think he appreciates the love we give him and there is no need to be jealous over my other male. Glad to have him back and I am never letting him go again, he's truly a one handler dog and he's mine, forever. She wanted to buy a pup but, no, Sibes aren't for everyone and she didn't call me when there was a problem.
Edit: Argh, sorry, I type too much, went off topic I just thought what he did was funny, except for the little skin problem, could have been an innocent mistake.
by isachev on 13 July 2011 - 00:47
|Scrap all those Supplements and get that GSD on a Raw Prey Diet. I can't push this enough. I know alot of people out there don't believe in it. But after having GSD's for 20 years + I've learned a little.|
Seen all types of allergies and have spent thousands tring to figure it out, to no avail. I started feeding my pack a Raw Prey Diet. The results were night and day. Titus with skin allergies cleared up in 2 weeks. Cadence quit eating crap!!! 4 years trying to stop this. Past GSD's never quit eating crap. They were on a high end kibble and supplements. All my GSD's teeth are now spotless, no bad breath, they crap 75% less- YES 75% LESS!!! I will never ever go back to kibble. I'm paying less now than I did feeding kibble. Never had happier GSD's. Sch training and energy of the charts. Sure it was a bit of learning, but no big deal. Take a minute and check out these links please. Let's not turn this into a Raw vs. Kibble discussion.
Good Luck. Pete
by starrchar on 13 July 2011 - 02:57
|von Harasymptzuk, I was not directing my comment at you. I have no doubt the pup from your litter had issues due to over-vaccination and who knows what else. There are a couple posters on this board that have posted on other threads regarding an allergy issue and all they say is "it's genetic" and then when one of their pups has allergy issues it is the pup's owner who is at fault and the pup's owner is an idiot. This has NOTHING to do with you! Sorry it came across that way.|
I do believe that a raw diet is a real good start for any dog with allergies as I have personally seen itchy dogs stop itching after being put on a raw diet. It took a little more with my dog to get her allergies under control. I saw a positive change after putting her on raw, but once I got her on the right probiotic (in addition to the raw diet) I saw an even bigger change. I am also very careful about all products used in my house and on my lawn. NO pesticides or chemical fertilizers whatsoever! Nothing with a strong scent is used in the house. No harsh cleaners are used. I clean my floors with a steam mop. I don't use perfume...and the list goes on.
It's better for both the animals and the humans in our household.