German Shepherd Dog > WUSV/GSDL BRITISH REGIONAL CHAMPION (88 replies)
by jaymesie51 on 16 June 2011 - 18:47
|Have to agree that the word british should be dropped maybe call them BRG Champion so at least everyone will know it is not a KC Champion.|
by jaymesie51 on 16 June 2011 - 19:02
|And as far as i am concerned no suggestions from annonymous people should be accepted, just my opinion|
by Videx on 16 June 2011 - 21:36
|The title "British Champion" is clear, precise and states exactly what it is.|
It will also resonate clearly with the British Public and onlookers from around the World
if one must add further clarification, them by all means add BRG in front, = "BRG British Champion"
The "British Sieger" clearly identifies the Sieger at our annual British Sieger Show.
To state there may be some confusion between the words "Champion" and "Sieger" is ridiculous in the extreme
It appears that PRO KC individuals are sowing their own seeds of confusion for their own agenda. Perhaps because they fear the implications to their "beloved KC CC status" which they retained by signing the "infamous KC Undertaking" - fearful for their future status.
Now the GSDL/WUSV BRG are developing their very own status by introducing "Championship" status to their "Regional Events" - which will obviously place the KC CC's and Championship Shows into an obviously inferior perspective. They simply will not be able to compare with a Champion Title gained under very meaningful and clear health requirements.
For these very reasons we must ensure we use in our Champion title the words "BRITISH CHAMPION"
by Abby Normal on 16 June 2011 - 22:41
|Well maybe everyone should, as Alyson says, just send in their suggestions (anonymously or otherwise !) you too Videx, and include their thoughts and suggestions on the title if they feel it's relevant. |
by Videx on 16 June 2011 - 23:17
|Abby, you never fail to surprise me with your naivety.|
by Abby Normal on 17 June 2011 - 07:05
|What am I being naive about now? |
by peterlee on 17 June 2011 - 07:12
If people want a system whereby they can aspire to the title of 'Champion' (or anything else you want to call a dog which has accumulated so many points or won so many shows) for their dog there is nothing wrong with that. However, when the top national title for best GSD is Sieger or Siegerin what does the addition of the word 'British' before the word 'Champion' imply other than that it is a national title and that a dog which holds it is the national champion?
Indeed, I venture to say it is rather worse than that. After all, Joe Public knows what the word champion means. He does not necessarily know what the word Sieger means. What do you think Joe Public is going to think the title 'British Champion' means? He is going to take it to mean that a dog which holds the title 'British Champion' is the best GSD in the country. He is not going to know that there many be many 'British Champions' and that the best GSD in the country is the Sieger. Clearly the intention is to give special recognition to dogs which do well over many shows. That is fine but do not give them a title which implies that they hold a title won at a national show and which implies that the holder of the title is the best dog in the country.
Do the Germans have a Sieger and a 'German Champion'? Does anyone else? Of course, not. And the reason is obvious. The addition of the word 'British' before the proposed title implies something which only the winner of the national show is entitled to.
by Abby Normal on 17 June 2011 - 07:45
|Peterlee, I can see your point, it could be a bit misleading. |
The word British in front of Champion does imply that a dog has competed against and beaten every other GSD shown in the UK. Champion on it's own does not make a distinction between KC Champion and the GSDL/WUSV Champion.
Surely the most obvious title for the new award would be the same as the title of this thread. It includes the word British but balances that with the word Regional, removing the notion that it is a 'national' title. That works for me.
The Sieger/Siegerin can only be achieved by dogs with working titles, which therefore excludes those dogs which have none and so cannot compete for the Sieger title. I can see the reason for it's introduction, as in the UK working titles are not a route that many exhibitors wish to go, or are restricted from going due to lack of facilities.
by Alyson R on 17 June 2011 - 07:51
There has been a lot of proposals put down here on a public forum - which is good in itself, but this is not the format the Working Group has asked to be used to get your points put over to the BRG.
If you have a comment please help us to collate ALL points of view and e-mail it to Shirley or Brigid, or post it to Shirley.
by Videx on 17 June 2011 - 08:20
|peterlee your comments presume a great deal. You appear overly concerned about the BRG introducing the title of Champion and only wish they would stick with the British Sieger title. A Kennel Club desire no doubt, because they fear competition with their outdated and hugely over rated show system which has absolutely NO health screening minimum requirements.|
It is clear that some Kennel Club "devotees" want to keep an "edge" over the GSDL/WUSV System, and that "edge" is the Kennel Club CC's and the title Champion. The reason being is because WHEN the title "Champion" is introduced into the GSDL/WUSV System, the public will VERY QUICKLY identify the difference it has with the KC Champion - MEANINGFUL HEALTH MEASUREMENTS. This will make a HUGE difference to the British public and the the British GSD Show Scene and to the British GSD Exhibitors.
When pro Kennel Club people try and push their agenda of retaining their imagined supremacy of the Kennel Club CC's, it make me absolutely more certain of the necessity for the GSDL/WUSV System to quickly introduce their very own meaningful Championship System.
Abby, your naivety is that you could imagine for more than one second that I would not have already sent my views in.
by peterlee on 17 June 2011 - 08:31
Personally I can't say I'm bothered one way or the other what people want to call it if they want to award recognition to dogs that have consistently done well over more than one show. It is something that deserves recognition, after all, and if it motivates people then so much the better. My only problem is in the proposed title of 'British Champion' which implies that it is a title gained at a national show.
'Champion on it's own does not make a distinction between KC Champion and the GSDL/WUSV Champion.'
That's true I suppose but it can't be beyond the wit of man to come up with a title which does not imply something that it is not. If, say, a dog is V 9 at the Bundessieger and VA 2 at the American Sieger Show it would be quite normal to write VA 2 (US) so as to avoid the possibility of misleading. Similarly there is no reason why people cannot write Ch (KC) or Ch (GSDL) if the distinction is important to them. 'Champion' implies that a dog has done well. There is no real reason why the KC and GSDL/WUSV cannot use the same word to recognise this if they want and for those to whom the distinction matters to add the letters (KC) or (GSDL) if they wish.
As I said, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. It is for others to decide what they want. I am simply pointing out the the proposed title of 'British Champion' is misleading. I would guess that the very last thing that the people at the forefront of the new show scene want to do is to mislead. That is what they are trying to get away from.
by noddi on 17 June 2011 - 08:44
|morning all.David ,IMHO the title should read as per the title of this thread as i can see Joe Public associating British Champion with the UK Kennel Club.May i ask a question...Why are u assuming that the top winning animals which have won the title of champions/are winning well at KC shows ARE NOT HEALTH TESTED WHEN THE MAJORITY ARE.Most of the alsatian breeders are health testing too,its only a small minority that DONT.You are undermining these breeders.You keep on about CHOICE.Well it is THEIR CHOICE to attend KC shows in preference to the regional ones.Most do not like the double handling n the handling system shown on the more german side of the fence.I myself WILL DO BOTH TYPES OF SHOWS,with my new pup when i get it,THAT WILL BE MY CHOICE.Carole Spelman,Rheinmeister gsds.|
by Videx on 17 June 2011 - 10:39
|The KC shows and Accredited Breeders Scheme purposefully give the impression that they are completely credible simply because they are Kennel Club systems. The truth is significantly different. I am obliged to point the differences out at every opportunity. It may be true that many in our breed health test, however you can be certain that is "no thanks" to the Kennel Club. The Kennel Club "should" upgrade their conditions for KC show entries, and their (unhealthy) Accredited Breeders Scheme(ABS) - but they don't. Therefore one must continuously ask 'why not?' and continuously point the facts out. I am absolutely certain that the "ABS " should carry a health warning, simply on the basis that what is implied is untrue. Whenever I point out the true facts about the health conditions underpinning the ABS people are genuinely shocked. I am ensuring that these facts are brought to the forefront of public knowledge. Those who are members of the ABS know why they became members, predominantly for increased puppy sales opportunities, in the knowledge that the British public is being hoodwinked about the true facts regarding health screening requirements and what are OPTIONAL.|
by Abby Normal on 17 June 2011 - 10:42
|Videx, LOL Of course I should know that you would have already sent in your views, I must be having a 'naive' week. Makes a change from my usual cynicism tho.|
by AmbiiGSD on 17 June 2011 - 10:48
|Peterlee raises a very valid point.|
I can see your average joe bloggs being more than confused, all they want at the end of the day is a tempermentally sound, healthy, happy, well adjusted pup. Titles this, titles that.... the majority of people that want a pet aren't interested in titles.
I think the emphasis on health tests is more important than any title.
by Videx on 17 June 2011 - 11:22
|Titles. It is Titles that exhibitors travel hundreds of miles to try and gain, from England to Northern Ireland, to Wales and to Scotland and backwards. Also many travel to Ireland. How many will travel the same distances for Open Shows?|
Then the question should be applied to Regional Events?
Reality is exactly that, REALITY. It should never be ignored or bypassed.
It may be that some never travel any distances, so be it. However never forget ouras is a National and International Show scene.
In our GSDL/WUSV BRG we can have Health Tests and Titles - we can have both. we also have many other requirements such as Identification in Tattoo and Micro-chipping.
by Doppelganger on 17 June 2011 - 11:23
|Videx you are preaching to the converted by keep putting your views on health testing on this forum. As for your comment "WHEN the title "Champion" is introduced into the GSDL/WUSV System, the public will VERY QUICKLY identify the difference it has with the KC Champion - MEANINGFUL HEALTH MEASUREMENTS. This will make a HUGE difference to the British public" - come on get real, the British public think a dog is a Champion if its been to Crufts. They will have no idea of what the different titles mean. One thing I do think though is that by using the title of this thread, it will make it seem as though the dog is only a Champion in a certain 'Region' rather than nationally.|
by Videx on 17 June 2011 - 11:29
|Most of the British Public have been very well educated over the years into understanding the value of Hip Scoring when they buy a Puppy. Never forget that Hip Scoring was introduced by our GSD breed.|
I fully agree with your point regarding the title including "Regional" - the public and many GSD owners will most likely ask "in what Region did your dog become a Champion?
by AmbiiGSD on 17 June 2011 - 11:40
|"Titles. It is Titles that exhibitors travel hundreds of miles to try and gain, from England to Northern Ireland, to Wales and to Scotland and backwards. Also many travel to Ireland. How many will travel the same distances for Open Shows?"|
And herein lies the crux. Your viewpoint is different than the majority of people out there looking to buy a puppy. Unless you sell every single pup that you produce to other exhibitors (that know what the heck all the titles mean and the difference between the KC and the WUSV) then, there would be no issue. The problem lies in that; the majority of people that buy a pup aren't exhibitors, they don't show. Yes, admittidly there are people that become interested and may well go on to learn more about the breed. Even venturing into the show ring, some even get bitten by the bug. That's the exception to the rule, that's not the 'norm'.
At the end of the day what are you trying to achieve? is it for the exhibitors benefit or is it for the betterment of the breed? If it is for the betterment of the breed in general, you have one hell of an uphill struggle just to educate the public, and two systems of show titles is just going to confuse them.
by missbeeb on 17 June 2011 - 11:55
I really don't think it matters whether or not the Gen Public get confused about the titles, after all how many understand JW, stud book number etc or what is required to become a KC Champion?
It is important that the public know that what is shown / bred by us has met the necessary health criteria, whereas, KC shows require no such guarantees.