German Shepherd Dog > WUSV/GSDL BRITISH REGIONAL CHAMPION (88 replies)
by Abby Normal on 13 June 2011 - 07:09
Do you remember those things called 'Suggestion Boxes' from years gone by. Some of the most imaginitive and beneficial ideas came from them. They were always anonymous.
by jaymesie51 on 13 June 2011 - 07:40
|You would say thay because you yourself are annonymous, but still want a say in how our breed is run, if you want a say do so under your own name or not at all end off|
by Abby Normal on 13 June 2011 - 08:44
How did I guess that would be your reaction ? You would stifle an idea, albeit maybe a brilliant one because you don't know the identity of the person that made it. Great plan.
Your response is a precise example of what I am referring to. If ALL ideas were put forward anonymously there could be no abandonment of a good idea just because *you* don't like the person who made it, or because *you* don't know who they are, or *you* want to push your own agenda ! Where is the logic in that? How can the breed ever progress with that attitude?
A good idea is a good idea - end of. Yet you would discard it, it's called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Until people let go of the stuff that doesn't matter, we will never make progress with the stuff that does.
If you have 10 sheets of paper with ideas on, and four of them are great ideas why would you not adopt that idea REGARDLESS of where it comes from ? It is better to review ideas that way because they are looked at solely on their merit as an idea that a committee can consider, having taken out the distractions of politics.
Do I want a say in running this breed? Well I may have some ideas, such as points for working titles, I don't imagine for a minute that I could have 'a say'. Do I think I can make a difference by putting forward ideas that will be looked at solely on their merit? No, obviously not when people in the breed have your attitude, but it's been that way for years so I won't lose any sleep over it.
There are also people *known* in the breed who would like to say things that they feel they can't in the current climate. Giving everybody a chance to have their say without *fear* of reprisals would be refreshing, and IMO just what this breed needs.
by CAROL on 13 June 2011 - 09:11
I think you are being a little unfair, if the WUSV GSDL Regional group wanted to decide on a Champion status system without outside input we would have just done it, we want everyones views and ideas which is why we have designed a flyer to give out at shows and post on the internet, please send any ideas/comments to Brigid or Shirley (you can send them in any form you wish!) and these will be passed to the working party, there are many different things to take into consideration when designing such a system, we are fully aware of this and committed to coming up with the best possible system we can.
by yorkjason on 13 June 2011 - 09:16
|Good post Abby Normal. I removed my email addy very soon after joining this site and noticed other members have done the same over a period of time. It seems it depends what dogs you own or whose pocket you are in as to whether you are taken seriously or not. Like you said good ideas are good ideas no matter where they come from. It's all so sad. If all you breeders who persist in making snide remarks on here are so clever the breed wouldn't be in the state it's in would it !.|
I rest my case.
by yorkjason on 13 June 2011 - 09:21
|Thank you CAROL for including everyone.|
by noddi on 13 June 2011 - 09:30
|hiya all,been reading this thread with interest n i have to agree with Abby.I thought we were going to have our own type of shows (regional events)run on the german system.Great i thought for when i aquire a new pup in the future,i can do both,the KC ones n the regional events.Whydo we have to have champions under the WUSV/GSDL system of shows.Do the other countries who have these types of shows declare champions apart from sieger n seigerine at the SIEGER SHOW?If one wants ones shep. to become a CHAMPION then do the KC champ.shows.Oh no cant go to the dreaded kc shows n try for a champ.title at those as it aint worth the paper its written on?Oh yea,then why on earth are some of the top (n by that i mean ones who are producing quality sheps.)breeders still entering for that chance.When alls said n done ,most ppl.do want to make up a champion whether it be a KC one or otherwise.Abby,i agree ,all suggestions to the league SHOULD BE ANONYMOUS as yu stated n now i,m showing my age ,i do remember having a suggestion box at the bank i used to work for.Jim H. there,s too much back stabbing in this breed,ppl.who have only just started showing n think they know it all n others who are too far up other ppls backsides who think they are gods gift to the breed.We all need to think of the dogs n not ones own agenda .Carole Spelman Rheinmeister gsds.|
by Abby Normal on 13 June 2011 - 09:45
My post was not a criticism of the regional group, or it's approach to obtaining input at all. I noted your request for ideas to be sent to the group, and I congratulate you on this approach, IMO that is how it should be.
It was solely aimed at Jaymesie51 who stated that no ideas should be accepted from anyone who was 'anonymous'. My argument was therefore simply that a good idea is a good idea wherever it comes from, and identity of the person should be irrelevant.
It was only when considering this point that the idea came to me that general anonymity would clear the decks of any prejudices such as J51's, and allow for ideas to flow more freely.
I make no apologies however for referencing the politics, prejudices and personal animosity that are prevalent within the breed, we all know it has been a problem for years. I hope to see the League take steps to take this breed forward and cut out all these distractions. Some people become discouraged from participating in a lot of things because of it.
I think that YorkJason is right in that certain people appear to have a great deal of influence in the breed, virtually to the exclusion of all others. Whether that is actually the case I cannot say. They are really not willing to listen to anyone else, and when you get a 'closed shop' mentality this does stifle genuine progress IMO.
by Alyson R on 13 June 2011 - 10:16
|To add to Carol's post, please read the flyer that has been designed. |
You should note that we are trying to be as inclusive as possible, we have not confined comments to GSD League members, breeders, show people, or any particular group of people. All comments and points are valid and will be considered. Please just send them in ASAP and in a readable format to allow us time to consider every view point thoroughly. Very interesting so far!
by Abby Normal on 13 June 2011 - 10:23
|Carole (Spelman) don't want to get mixed up with 2 Carol/es LOL|
Nice to *see* you. Yes, I agree with you, the KC is still available for CC's and many do both. The KC shows don't 'preclude' healthy dogs from being shown, and these days to be honest I don't think there are many that wouldn't have a passing health test, progress has at least been made in that department.
I think it's a case of opting for a complete break from the KC, and therefore coming up with an alternative which is much the same but with mandatory health testing and breed survey etc. A champion at regional events would mean that people could be lured away from competing at KC shows, if they could get a Champion award via the regional events. From a public perception I think a Champion award from the KC would currently likely be seen as more prestigious, as the WUSV/GSDL is not so much in the general public's awareness as yet. I think what would happen is that people would try for a champion at both, although if a points system for champion were adopted, it would mean that those who could attend and compete at every regional event would have much more chance than those who could only make the occasional event. That would make it more difficult than the current KC system.
No other countries do not offer a 'champion' award to my knowledge, this would be a British addition. As I said, we already have a top award and that is the British Sieger and Siegerin, BUT the only dogs that can compete for that have to have working titles, which completely fits with the ethos of the 'german' GSD. But, those who have dogs who do well in conformation but don't have working titles cannot therefore achieve it. Some exhibitors won't show at KC events any more, and so can't obtain a Champion title. At bottom I think that's why the Champion title is being introduced, to fill that gap.
by Abby Normal on 13 June 2011 - 10:30
|Alyson, if submitted by post what is the best address to send them to?|
by Videx on 13 June 2011 - 10:49
|The object of the GSDL/WUSV System is to be FULLY INCLUSIVE and based on identification and clear and identifiable Health measures.|
To reach this objective it is essential to offer detail of the fundamental requirements along with the CHOICES and OPPORTUNITIES.
Therefore this MUST include the SV System AND a system for those that do not wish to follow the SV system in its entirety, but maybe partially.
Many exhibitors want the opportunity of making up a Champion in our GSD breed and many consider that a making up a Champion in the GSDL/WUSV System is far more meaningful for our breed than making up a KC Champion. Any cursory examination of this comparison between a KC Champion and a GSDL/WUSV Champion makes this very obvious.
It is therefore logical to offer the OPPORTUNITY for exhibitors within the GSDL/WUSV System to make up Champions. To deny exhibitors this OPPORTUNITY would clearly be a fundamental breakdown of the objectives of the GSDL/WUSV System.
It is also logical to consider ALL ideas that are submitted on the method to be used in making up a Champion, and they should ALL be carefully considered, irrespective of who submits them.
The inclusion of Champion Status within the GSDL/WUSV System will make the system much more attractive to GSD exhibitors, Spectators, The general public and many GSD owners and purchasers. Our new system has MUCH to offer our GSD breed, we should ensure we maximise its potential and ensure that we avoid limiting its OPPORTUNITIES and CHOICES.
The title of "BRITISH CHAMPION" has a very appealing and attractive ring to it. I also believe the international GSD World will immediately be attracted by such a meaningful title based on health measures and identification.
There is ONE essential addition to our GSDL/WUSV System still to be included, and that is the DNA Parentage Test to be included in the Breed Survey. This should be introduced as soon as possible.
Note: many countries have Champions, and several countries are adopting our GSDL/WUSV System and watching the progress of our system very closely. They consider our GSDL/WUSV System is ideal for ALL GSD exhibitors within their countries, offering CHOICE and OPPORTUNITIES. They know they must build on what exists in their country, whilst also offering the SV system that exists in Germany, this offers unity and progress alongside choices and opportunity. We have proved our GSDL/WUSV System is THE WAY FORWARD.
by Member on 13 June 2011 - 11:08
|Originally I saw no reason to get involved with what I considered a simple request for people to give ideas, views and suggestions for having Champion status/ points system included at the regional events. The reason for now having to post is to try and stop the current situation about anonymous or named suggestions being put forward. I would like to think that any suggestion put forward would be taken into account named or un- named and confidentiality would be in order when these suggestions are dealt with by the WUSV/ GSDL Group. The whole idea of the flyers being given out at the future WUSV events is to gain everyones input, this is also the reason for posting the the request on the Leagues Web Site and not just for those who attend the Events. When the results are put together they will be discussed by the group and I for one will not be interested in who put the suggestions forward , my only interest is the future of the Events in the UK. From all the ideas put forward hopefully the Group can come to an agreement as to what fits best with the way forward so as to give the exhibitors, quality events which are enjoyable and rewarding.|
John Ward.WUSV Group Cornwall
PS I am sure someone putting a name on their suggestion if not not recognised will not be tracked down before it`s accepted !!
by CAROL on 13 June 2011 - 11:28
|Very well put David (Videx) and John (Member)|
look forward to seeing lots of constructive ideas :)
Abby, if you want to submit a postal idea maybe send to Shirley Hutchinson as she is the Secretary, or hand in at a show, look forward to receiving it.
by hutch on 13 June 2011 - 12:08
|My address for any comments|
There was mention of suggestion boxes in an earlier post and we have already agreed we will put a suggestion box out at the forthcoming shows - ALL views will be considered by the working party on this issue.
by hutch on 13 June 2011 - 12:26
|The above is my post in my role as WUSV/GSDL-BRG secretary, here's some of my personal opinion on the matter.....|
Two key reasons why the WUSV/SV system is better than the KC system are that health testing and working ability are incorporated and mandatory.
There is no compromise over health testing and the discussions on a Champion Title have already made this a high priority.
The top title of British Sieger and British Siegerin is only available to those in the working class at the British Sieger and so they must have schutzhund qualifications.
In the UK, we do not have the infrastructure that there is in Germany or elsewhere, for exhibitors to gain SchH qualifications - progress is being made but it is difficult (believe me I know what I am talking about on this point!). Therefore, the top title is largely being restricted to exhibitors who can afford (and want) to send their dogs away to gain the working qualification.
Add to that the fact that some people feel that Schutzhund is not necessarily a measure of working ability that they wish to engage in - there are several other valid working qualifications which are not recognised by the WUSV/SV system and it becomes obvious that a very large portion of exhibitors in the UK are being excluded from being able to obtain "the prestigious" title.
This is why a system with choices is being introduced (hence adult classes not just working classes) and, in my opinion, could become the envy of other countries.
I am not a member of the working party on this matter but will share my views with them for consideration.
by Videx on 13 June 2011 - 13:30
|(hutch) Shirley wrote: "In the UK, we do not have the infrastructure that there is in Germany or elsewhere, for exhibitors to gain SchH qualifications"|
This is a very important point. I have been to Germany hundreds of times over the last 20+ years, averaging around a dozen time per year, and believe me most GSD folk here in the UK would be amazed just how many GSD Clubs exist with superb Club houses and small kennels for the temporary use of dogs attending the clubs and the range of training and appropriate experienced trainers. Most towns and cities have several different clubs, some only a few miles apart.
Now think carefully how many similar GSD Club facilities exist here within the whole of the UK, and ask yourself how many there is likely to be over the next 10 or 20 years. Then ask yourself why should many GSD enthusiasts be disadvantaged by geographical distance from a GSD Club that offers suitable and varied training.
We have to proceed with what we currently have, and what we may reasonably anticipate. We will never be able to emulate what exists within Germany, however we can at least make every effort to make our very best efforts of each and every opportunity.
It is not in the least surprising that many choose to have their dogs trained in Germany, and this should not be ridiculed. It is a very hard and expensive decision to send a loved GSD away for long periods, believe me.
Our developing British GSDL/WUSV System contains everything and more of what we would have wanted from the Kennel Club for our breeds show scene in past years. Unfortunately the Kennel Club have clearly indicated they were not up for persuading in this direction. The Kennel Club cannot even REQUIRE a reasonable hip score within their profoundly unhealthy "Accredited Breeders Scheme", and they do not require any exhibitors to be even micro-chipped or tattooed.
Ours is a "BRITISH GSD SYSTEM" and it is without a doubt, THE WAY FORWARD FOR OUR GSD BREED here within the UK.
by jaymesie51 on 15 June 2011 - 06:26
|Can someone please tell me what is wrong with putting your name to something you believe in, anyone can submit anything they want but if you can not put your name to it then you obviously do not have the belief in it your self,this board is an example of what annonymous people can do to a genuine forum which was at one time frequented by most breeders,for me putting your name to something means you have a genuine interest in it and it can also help guage just how many people in our breed are showing an interest in the future of it.|
by Abby Normal on 15 June 2011 - 08:00
|It's really obvious. Because a good idea is a good idea wherever it comes from, named or not. Just because people on this board (often for very good reasons) wish to remain anonymous it doesn't mean they have any less interest in the breed than others. I think it denotes a mistrust of politics within the breed generally. It does not mean you do not believe in what you are submitting, that's a peculiar take on it, and you can still get an idea of how many people are interested from pure numbers of submissions, not by *names*, names are superfluous. I can't see that you have offered one good reason for *needing* to know who submitted a particular idea.|
Personally I think the idea of total anonymity for ideas for the breed is a good one. It would prevent someone supporting an idea that they didn't particularly believe in, because they feel pressured to support the person who made it or risk possible animosity. Conversely, as I said before it prevents people dismissing an idea because there is some animosity against the person that made it. That's why.
I applaud the league for wishing to receive ideas from anyone and everyone, anonymous or not. Good sense prevails.
by Penny on 15 June 2011 - 09:44
Can I perhaps clarify things to the ones that don`t understand people that wish to use both systems.
I was one of the most eager people to "dump" the KC when a safer system was suggested, and we were being treated so shabbily by the KC when trying to push for health screening.
I became involved as much as possible in setting up with very eager colleagues the WUSV/SV system underpinned by our main and credible WUSV/SV affiliated UK club the GSD League. Together we have all worked out a great alternative. When becoming of age, health screening is required. At the youngest age for exhibiting identification is required. When becoming of age working qualifications are required, and demonstrated at the main British Seiger etc.,
This allows any-one with dogs qualified both healthwise and workwise to compete in and outside the UK if they wish, it has even brought titling and Koerung`s within reach of people not wishing to go out of the UK. It has brought a refreshing show scene, with people new and old coming to join in, have a look, and see what its all leading to - a carefully considered animal with nothing to hide for breeding, as its all out there on paper for all to see. Its a challenge that we should all have had with the K.C. - but hey ho.
KC Regulated shows: Well they are still with us of course, and I can take my health screened animals (which makes them superior to un screened animals there IN MY MIND) to those shows too. I can go and compete and see my friends there too. I can win or lose but know that although the KC have stuck their head in the sand and continue to look upon showing as a "beauty competition" I am taking home dogs very worthy of exhibiting snd breeding from if I wish.
From a point of view of a breeder: At this present moment, the new system is in its infancy and we have to give to everyone - and some people like the title Champion. I certainly did, but will like it more if its given such credability as from our system too, which gives me much more of a challenge. Health hoops to jump through before my female or male can even be considered, not three KC shows and a high hip score to still be able to be a Champion.
From the point of a buyer: Lets say... first puppy.... where do I ask about it.... unfortunately, KC. They push their accredited breeder bilge, as they don`t have accredited dogs - and off goes me to a puppy farm with registered pups by the KC. or I look at a few alternatives with the internet at my fingertips, and see that there are Champions and high class dogs out there that won their awards for health, character, and the whole package.... even can be called Champion if they are really special. Where would you go to? However, we are in our infancy, and although the system we use is established, its new to the UK, so we need to help out everyone that wants to join us in our new found freedom for healthy dogs.
Its about aiming high. Pushing the people who don`t health screen to address that they are damaging the reputation of our breed
To clarify why I would go to both. Cos I Can !!! and .....Cos They Can !!! ( if they have health checked dogs )