German Shepherd Dog > Civil Dogs (80 replies)
by desert dog on 30 May 2011 - 00:31
|A civil dog to me is one that will go from nuetral to unprovoked bite other than command with out any other stimulus. A dog biting a intruder, or a dog biting in defense is just another good dog. IMO|
And there are a lot of them around. Alot of dogs are started at a young age working bite sleeves and tugs, and don't get much civil work to develope it like it should. And there are some that just don't have the heart for it.
by Paul Garrison on 30 May 2011 - 04:26
|Paul.....you said, "no fear biters, sharp or brainless dogs....." what is your definition of sharp? What is the point of a civil PP dog if you can't take him places with you? To me what you are describing is a junk yard dog. Just to clarify you mean handler hard not to be confused with handler aggressive as that is a separate thing. Do you feel these are only really found in the West german lines?|
Sharp dogs are driven out of fear. I want clear headed hardness. You can take him places they just need to be well trained. Most junk yard dogs are sharp, it is a good place for them. Handler hardness comes from dogs higher up the alpha scale. But a sharp or fearful dog can seem to be handler hard or agressive, but it is just fear. I perfer West German dogs because of breeding but it is or was easier to find civil dog in the eastern block countries. The Hungerian's and Czech's have produced some very civil and hard dogs and I would take the right dog from these lines, but West German lines I like best. It is very different breeding, more like a different breed. It is the same as show lines and working lines. Just different dogs.
by ronin on 30 May 2011 - 21:37
Where do you get your information on Old Style Hard Civil Dogs!
by myret on 30 May 2011 - 22:19
how about maybe getting a pup from Inox from haus ming he should be a hard guading dog and is linebreed on Mink
by wanderer on 31 May 2011 - 02:27
|I have a litter of pups from this breeding:|
Mink is in the pedigree on the sire side. It is an outcross in that the only common ancestor is Troll in the fifth generation. That is not a bad dog to have in common. The parents were bred because they are very alike in type.
No one in the club I belong to nor in clubs in BC Canada is buying a puppy from this litter. It is all club policy and friends connections. The pups currently sold from this litter are going all over North America because some savvy people recognize the benefits of the combinations of bloodlines. The puppies are all bouncy, explorative, large, healthy, social and scrappy. They are all inquisitive and getting experience with different surfaces, loud noises, (next to my hubby's machine shop) and outdoor roaming in back yard.
They have the best feed and are kept as clean as possible. We are both retired and able to give the best attention and care. The mother, my female, is a super trial dog and in SchH3 has been high in trial and all SG scores under an FCI well known hard judge, and is KKl1.
And yet, because I am not a "known breeder" or with a reputation, people don't seem to want my pups. And yet, this is the most beautiful, healthy, active and uniform litter. I am so fortunate to have such a beautiful bunch of pups. I am amazed at the quality.
I am only charging $1500 with full registration, 3 wormings, tattoos and microchips, and yet I see known-name breeders who could not possibly give the pups the benefits we are giving, charging $2500 and more. Makes no sense to me.
by Paul Garrison on 31 May 2011 - 03:13
It looks like a nice group of well bred puppies but they are bred for the sport. The money is in the top sport dogs but I would not trust my things or my life with one. Troll and Timmy were both fine Sch dogs, but I would never line breed on Fero. A little Fero goes a long way in my opinion. Fero was a high line or show dog and that is fine for a outcross but not to line breed on.
This is the problem with the GSD today too much sport and not enough hardness. We all need to remember Sch was set up to judge PROTECTION DOGS now tell me just what do they protect? It has become a contest. My wife fills soda machines and has quite a bit of money in her truck; now would you trust the modern SchIII dog to protect her? I would not. It requires a civil hard brave agressive dog to do this. He does not need to wag his tail and be friendly.
by Paul Garrison on 31 May 2011 - 03:22
I get my information from experience of having owned many of these fine dogs and it does not seem you have been around very many eastern block dogs. of even 10-15 years ago they did not run off they would eat you if given the chance.
by Paul Garrison on 31 May 2011 - 03:32
Will the dog do that on its own if it is left in the car or in the yard? If so that is civil.
by Chaz Reinhold on 31 May 2011 - 03:45
|Paul, you seem like a guy that has studied a pedigree or two and knows what he's getting from certain dogs, so what's the problem?|
by wanderer on 31 May 2011 - 04:05
|Yes, Paul, they are bred for the sport. However, I pointed out, the only common ancestor is Troll in the FIFTH generation. That is not exactly line breeding. Both parents are hard dogs in the old style with a lot of defense. The sire, more so. Not a litter of prey wimps in any sense of the word.|
My female has protected me in the real world when I needed it on a moment's notice and she would always be there for me. And yet she is highly social and safe with anyone. All of the helpers who have worked with her (some of the best in the USA) will vouch for her working ability and spirit!
by Pirates Lair on 31 May 2011 - 04:12
Yes they will, and while I have great respect for well bred and trained sport dogs, our dogs are not sport dogs.
And while I hope my dogs never have to engage anyone, your welcome to try and get in my car or yard anytime.
by wanderer on 31 May 2011 - 04:26
|"And while I hope my dogs never have to engage anyone, your welcome to try and get in my car or yard anytime."|
Try my house too. And while I'm on the subject, I have an old crippled "show" dog that will take you down if you come in without one of us with you!
by Ace952 on 31 May 2011 - 17:38
I was under the impression that Sch was used to test the workability of a dog and not necessarily just "protection dogs". Hence it having 2 phases. Generlly speaking, I don't think it is hard to find a good protection dog. There are plenty of places to look and find one. It takes some research and word of mouth but it isn't hard. Paul you seem like you have a lot of experience and knowledge so I wouldnt think it would be hard for you to find some.
I don't understand where this whole thing that Sch dogs can't be "real dogs". I think too many people see oen or 2 examples and judge every dog that does do Sch as a dog that can't protect anything. I think too much energy is spent on pointing out what they think the dog can't do without seeing if it can do it. I think people don't look at the handler and the trainer. I would look at the handler and find out if they care for a "protection dog". Maybe they like the sport and it is all they want their dog to do. There are others in the sport that also can do "real serious" protection with their dog. Again it falls on the handler & what they want along with having the right trainer. You have old czech dogs that did Sch and other competitions and still were working dogs that could protect, so to say a dog does Sch means that eh can't be a real protection dogs to me is nonsense. To me I see it as a matter of training....simple as that.
We often see people talking about "old stye dogs" and hwo they were so great. Dogs today SHOULD be better than dogs 20-30 years ago. I would be concerned if a breeder was still breeding the same type of dog as they did 20 years ago with NO improvements.
by GSDPACK on 31 May 2011 - 18:34
What exactly do you want? Where do you live? Maybe somebody in your area works their dogs in PSA? there are some dogs that do Schutzhund with their dog that might just be civil....
by myret on 31 May 2011 - 18:40
|We often see people talking about "old stye dogs" and hwo they were so great. Dogs today SHOULD be better than dogs 20-30 years ago. I would be concerned if a breeder was still breeding the same type of dog as they did 20 years ago with NO improvements|
I must agree with you on somethings like not avery dog trained i schh is a shitty dog ,but I don't agree that the gsd has improved alot over the last 20-30 years
I have seen many dogs from 80's and 90's and they had the first far more prey drive than many of those you see today, and the old type dogs, they had many of the old lines had a much larger fighting spirit than it is today and hard nerves could tolerate the extreme hard
by myret on 31 May 2011 - 18:54
forgot to write the last.
by Ace952 on 31 May 2011 - 19:05
|Myret...Would you say that it is more of a reflection of what customers want as they dictate the market? I think you can find some of what you describe still today but you do have to do some research and talk to people.|
I mentioned that dogs being better than dogs from way back in the day b/c I too thought that dogs in the past were vastly superior than the dogs today until I went to a seminar hosted by Jiri Novotny of Jinopo. He mentioned how todays dogs (that they breed) are better dogs than what they had many many years ago. Better temperament, more well rounded, healthier, etc. This just coming from better breeding and knowing more as times go on. I will agree that the term "a lot" is subjective. I do now though believe that I should be able to get a GSD now that is better than one from 20-30 years ago.
I think we also need to clarify what kennels these dogs come from that people think are such "shitters" as well. It is more about who is breeding them instead of just having blanket statements that no one breeds civil hard dogs. People who want "real dogs" aka civil dogs complain that sport dogs are breed too much for sport. Sport people complain that people want all these "civil dogs" just to show they got a dog that can bite somone and they are clear headed. It could be said that both groups aren't breeding for balance. Prime example of the pot calling the kettle.....
by Ace952 on 31 May 2011 - 19:11
|Myret...I kinda wanna agree with that last statement. I also think that many people couldn't handle their dogs being worked that hard. Back then people weren't calling PETA, etc. Heck you won't see anyone post videos or advertising that of that kinda training b/c of fear of being sued.|
I think breeders produce more of what people want. Many know that while a lot of people ask for that type of dog, they really can't hendle the dog. I think a handler sensitive/responsive dog is something that should be promoted but again there are those that like for their dog to be hard or even aggressive towards them as they feel it makes them a harder dog. I always see handler aggressive as a dog not clear headed (unless maybe the handler isn't being fair to the dog when it comes to corrections or something?)
by Ace952 on 31 May 2011 - 22:29
Just want to add that just because a dog is a sport dog doesn't it is a real dog.
I think the term "real dog" is a joke.
by Chaz Reinhold on 01 June 2011 - 03:16
|I like how this topic always comes up, but the topic rarely produces talk of what kennels/dogs produce this. Blah, blah...dogs were better/are better, etc, etc. I would expect someone that sells over 300 dogs a year to say the product has improved. In the 70's, how many breeders were there? When you multiply that # by 100, do you think quality will go up or down, as a whole?|