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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Scutzhund, PSA, Monido (35 replies)
by Duderino on 01 June 2011 - 03:48 |
| Alph? Tracking is easy? Why don't you share some of your big scores with the crowd? Then share the scores from the other 2 phases at the same trial? This SchHI track that you mentioned, was it in a trial? Aged the proper amount of time? Laid properly? Walked at the end of a 10 meter leash with no verbal or line help? No training collar? Proper article indication? Who was the judge? |
by Chaz Reinhold on 01 June 2011 - 03:55 |
| Dude, tracking is easy. That's why nobody spends the time on it and they fail that phase more than the other two |
Chaz Reinhold by ALPHAPUP on 01 June 2011 - 12:50 |
| duderino .. without being indignantor sarcastic [ i can't beleive your post] ... but come on .. you should know ... you've trained dogs ... : a dogs nose .. they can scent one molecule /billion .. they have the capability to scent out a scent in the whole entire state building in the USA !! the dog instinctively , innately uses it's nose .. they don't need us . Tracking is simply : "dog this is what i want you to do with your nose .. follow the scent on the ground " ! NOT THAT DIFFICULT TO COMMUNICATE ... [ we don't have to so call teach this , the dog can do that on it's own , follow a scent !!!]. At 10 weeks old .. i already start my dogs off teaching tracking , varible surfaces , turns right away , around obstacles with , othew dogs , people and other ways to cross the track .. through water ,snow , mud , whatever ,aged tracks !! , in wind . ! in tracking , WE make the issues , the dog can use it's ownnose .. i have no problem seeing my dogs follow a rabbit track in my backyard .. they know how to , as stated .. AND by Golly , all you have to do to start is simply put a scrumptious piece of food and asscociate with a footprint and help the dog be correct to understand and execute your request as a pup .. on the other hand : if you cannot train a sch track 1 in weeks either you have a lazy , stupid or a low motivated dog [ barring nose medical issues] !! please .. anyone that doesn't understand this IMO without intention of sarcasm or being mean ... , but in essence , is ignorant when it comes to canines !! BTW sometimes i do trial in sports .. but IMO many , not all , but a good number of people that trial are obsessive / compulsives in the sense that they worry about a dam point .. i am more interested in' me and my dog ' - and i have no ego , nor do i value myself or my dog on what score it got or didn't get .. .... .. IMO i could care less about points - but in protection , like many on this PDB .. show me a dog that will take you down ..take you out ! who the hell cares about a trial point show me the dog that can actually find someone lost , that's important , who the hell cares about points !! as stated by me ad naseum on this PDB .. training is just communicating, a manifestation of human/canine relationship , and a way of life / living between the two . trackinmg is not hard , time consuminmg - yes ,,,, but not hard, almost not even a challenge .. it's the most natural thing a dog can do , even with it's eyes shut !! |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 01 June 2011 - 14:36 |
| Most people do end up doing whatever is available. It is fun to tease others about their sports though. In FR I see a lot of trials in EU for the GSD that look like the dobermann trials here. Just going through the motions in the bitework. I also see that the handlers are a lot older, so maybe they are just out there to trial and keep their traditions around. Same with Campane (I can not spell that for some reason today) you see a lot older people out there doing their thing. They don't even close off the parks that they rent, you see people watching and milling about. How cool is that ? I hear it is sorta dying off over there. A shame. We don't have the traditions they do. We are too busy on here giving each other crap. HA HA It would be nice to see people not freak out because there is no club (whatever sport you want that is not available) and just start looking for others in their area, and just start training. It is not easy, and of course you will make mistakes, but as long as you keep a fun attitude, your club will grow and progress. |
by Duderino on 01 June 2011 - 15:00 |
| Alph, that's a pretty long winded response considering you did not answer one of my questions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ7vIufVkCk&feature=related |
by ALPHAPUP on 01 June 2011 - 16:27 |
dude .. if he trialed or not is not relevent to my post .. to the post .the fact remains: tracking is not hard !!. a trial does not make a dog .. but what i will tell you : my mentor a SV judge tested him on his ability to Sch1 track ..he approved and acknowlewdged his ability . that was all he as a long hair , nuetered male needed. he he did more than well in all his performances... and that for our conversation as an answer is sufffice. BTW as you know from most other posts I do french ring . for the record i have in the past trained a number of GSDs dogs for Sch .. one special one went back to Germany and she trialed !! nor would i put you on the spots and ask about your accomplishments.. IMO working with your dog should be about your relationsahip , bettering yourself , your dog and living a wonderful life .. at least that is my perspective .. I declined to send one of my GSDs to Bundessiegerprufung [ i could be a wise guy and ask - did you ever train such a dog? but please don't answer , it's not important to me] . as well as show a female of mine that was invited to show IN GERMANY because of her caliber , as i wrote before , i declined [ did you ever have such high quality GSD the Germans wanted to show YOUR dog ? again don't answer ] .. just IMO show me the dog , show me what it can do .. what is better ? the dog who gets a Sch1 track or a dog w/o title when called upon can go out and track/find someone . tracking is not hard.. please if you argue otherwise you risk people reading these posts that are vered to think you ___ . .. yet .. i hear no rebutle in reference to what i wrote about a canines ability , now did I ?? you still think tracking is hard ?? time consuming yes .. BTW in the country , with many variables .. i never see any of my dogs fiddle around following an animals track .. they don't seem to worry or have trouble negotiaing terrain , age , weather , wind , turns .. and these are just plain 'ol simple home companions GSDs .. .. i should ask them ? where did you guys learn to track .. |
by johan77 on 01 June 2011 - 20:04 |
| Tracking is obviously hard if it´s should be performed the way to get high scores in SCH, why else are there pretty few that have tracking scores of 95 and above in big championships like the WUSV for example, we are not talking about tracking from A to B in whatever style the dogs likes to. Winning or placing very high in WUSV or the FCI world championship is probably the hardest thing to do compared to any dogsport due to the large number of participants, or is this wrong? If it takes a better dog than other sports is a different question. |
by Duderino on 01 June 2011 - 20:11 |
| So Alph, that IS you in the video clip. Your dog is good because you said so. |
by myret on 01 June 2011 - 20:30 |
| it is not easy to get the high scores in Schh on the worldwide competitions, but I will say that it takes an incredibly good trainer to train a dog to those world championships more than you need a good dog. I believe that most of the god schh dogs are mostly there trainers not the dog since everything is in perfect and perfectionist to achieve high marks |
myret by ALPHAPUP on 02 June 2011 - 02:01 |
| hey dude .. i never never never demo my dogs let alone make a video .. !! my GSDs are not in my life for my gratification or ego .. their accomplishments is for us there is no ulterior motive in having dogs for mere but the love of the dog .. it accepts me unconditionally and so i it. ,,, that is just me .. a motto in my life ; i caer not what others do or don't do , say or don't say but rather what is importantto me is being responsible for what i do / don't do and say /don't say . such is it the same way with my dogs .. trialing is for fun .. but that is as far as my interest goes . no ego . i wish no placements , no prizes , no money, no recognition of any sort !! . .. trying to be honest , yet with humility .. i can personally say i have accomplished what i set put to do in training canines. i know some that have gone to the nationals , some set on going top the WUSV .. and for them to want my dog or a dog trained as mine was ..even people that are the best rtraioners in europe !! that is satisfying enough- i need no more . . now if anyone gets out there to train with their dogs .. in my mind .. they alteady have gotten the prize , irregardless of titles , national /international trials etc. all my dogs 11 curently live in my house , a part of my life.. some of my friends have nice trophies for 1st placings in ring , or 2,3 placing in PSA ... their dogs live outside and are lucky to get a pat on the head .. sao who cares about great vidoes of dogs , prizes / placements .. not if that is living with your dog.. so please don't be so condescending to me.. you don't know me , never have seen what my GSDs are / have done , who i have trained with , who has taught me , what i am proficient in .. tracking is not hard-- but if you wish to say it is think it is no matter what level of tracking -- then ok, i accept that from you .. , and as far as a national tracking or any other tracking , most of the time it is training or handler error.. again : the dog knows how to use it's nose ... when a dog does not perform .. i don't know about you .. as long as the potential is there .. my first thought is -what did I FAIL to communicate [ i don't blame the dog] .. right now i have a 9 week pup already putting her nose to the ground ..this i will share for those interested[ and for those thinking tracking is hard ] .. i hand fed her , still do ... now she follows the hand ---now i can i simply have her nose touching /in contact with my hand ,i slowly bring my hand to the ground and simulataneously state "such" and feed her with her nose always in contact to the ground !!. i rtepeat 3 x day .. every meal , every snack/treat... i do this for days .. i already know with this pup .. when she hears the word 'such' in a couple more weeks .. when she hears " such" , where do you think her nose will instantly go ? -- for this is what is taught "when you hear the word such -nose to the ground"[ seek the track ]. , .right to the track ... [ next fundamental : follow the scent on the track- always , third fundamental : nothing matters , nothing, nothing but the track [ ie ignore anything other / avoid distractions] - first day tracking , every distraction possible is there , ]. so you see .. tracking right from the basic first step is soooo easy to teach . you help make the dog correct/ alays set the context and dog up for success.. .. it is not rocket science !!! -- it is low stress and a very very easy , positive leisurely pastime. |
by Chaz Reinhold on 02 June 2011 - 02:17 |
| Alpha, you are the best! I just want to teach you that the word you want to use is "regardless". |
by ALPHAPUP on 02 June 2011 - 11:26 |
| chaz .. even people must learn when a correction is appropriate and be accepting / or they never better themselves .. thanks |
by ALPHAPUP on 02 June 2011 - 16:23 |
| PS .. i find the topics and the personalities on the PDB interesting .. whenever some people cannot debate , make a rebutle for thier point of view .. many lead to character assasinations ! i just shared how easy it is to teach a pup to get it's nose to the ground .. another way ? just simply ask your dog " what will motivate the dog to get the nose to the ground and/ or follow a track/footprints ?? for those interested : [ i am sure the know it alls here aren't intgerested] : at dinner time before you feed the dog .. take a soaking , dripping , bloody marrow bone and pair it with your footprints [ very close in stepping] .. SO ?? do you think your hungry dog would follow that ?? Again teaching a dog that instinctively uses it's nose , especially to survie , is not all that hard .. -- please explain why you think or why in your teaching a dog .. tracking is so , so monumentally hard ?? ....... human nature .. when one has nothing to contribute .. all that is left is to try to cut someone down - instead of finding a way , problem solve , if you think something is hard to make it easy .. i have shared a few very very minor teaching scenarios .. i await your explanations as to why tracking is hard .. BTW .. scores make no difference .. either the dog can perform or it can't .. same concept that a scholastic test in reality is no different than what a youngster has done for homework no more no less .. doesn't matter if oit is a WUSV .. a dog taught to track correctly .. will track . |
by Duderino on 02 June 2011 - 18:09 |
| You are a goof. You still have not answered one of the questions I posed to you. Do you always skirt the question at hand and avoid direct answers? HAS ANYONE OTHER THAN YOU GAUGED THE EFFECTIVENESS OF YOUR TRACKING? Meaning, has anyone scored your track? You seem to throw all dogs into one lump by saying "either the dog can perform or it can't". Dogs perform and are motivated by different things and at different levels. Being as you have never competed (by your own admission) your opinion is basically moot. Building enough consistency to track anywhere, anytime is not easy. Ask Wallace Payne who devotes hour after hour sometimes several times a day tracking his dogs how "easy" it is. If memory serves me correct, he received a score of 18 (+/-) at one SchHIII National Championship and then the next year (or possibly 2 years later) was the North American FH Champion while putting up a 99 OFF LEAD. Why don't you tell him how easy tracking is. Why don't you tell the ten's of thousands of LEO how easy it is to track after they come back to the barn following a 2 hour empty track. Are you saying that what they were tracking just disappeared or didn't exist? That every dog should find every thing every time? Winds shift, humidity changes, rain falls, scents change over different terrain and vegetation. All dogs have different strengths and weaknesses as do humans. Not every athlete has the potential to be Michael Jordon or Peyton Manning or Albert Pujols. Many factors come into play when one walks the center line and only the people who have never done it think it's easy. At last year's FMBB IPO World Championship, Edgar Scherkl put up a 100 pt. protection routine in the preliminary round and in the final on Sunday, his dog didn't out and he was disqualified. Was that also very easy? Maybe you should take your methods, tested only by you on your grounds and on your terms, and go on the road and teach the world about Alpha Dog World and how to train dogsport. At least in your mind, you ALWAYS succeed. |
by Mystere on 02 June 2011 - 18:41 |
| Quote by Chaz: "Dude, tracking is easy. That's why nobody spends the time on it and they fail that phase more than the other two." Truer words were never spoken. Yet, in this neck of the woods, the consensus is that the folks who do ring sports are just those who too lazy to get up and do any tracking.  |
Mystere by ALPHAPUP on 03 June 2011 - 13:39 |
| Dude .. i answered all your questions - read all my posts . !! and i did not write that i never competed . i wrote that in regards to that long hair - was no reason to trial with him .. i have had 11, 12, 13 GSDs simultaneously for years . the majority are/have been worked. i also wrote i have done Sch ..but to the present do ring.. buiding enough to track any where anytime is not easy ? .. Again .. foolishness .. i start puppies at 9 , 10 weeks opld .. every where , anytime all conditions tracking !! E.g my Ando Altenberger progeny i started 10 weeks old : footsteps & turns , through water , grass , gravel , water puddles , mud , sand , CONCRETE & asphalt, cross contaiminated tracks [animals /people] , 20mph winds, up hill /down hill , ALL befrore he hit 13 weeks old ! shortly thereafter hard pouring rain , drizzle rain , snow , ice by the time he was 6 months.. it is not hard .. WHY .. because in a teaching phase as i wrote [ mostly for new trackers] I always , always make sure before i start i set the dog up and aid the dog in accomplishing the task successfully .. THAT IS NOT HARD !! Points / trials i am not overly impressed .. so .. one can trial ..- dogs and people can/ do make mistakes .. so you don't get a 95 point .. so a ddog steps off a track for a moment , loses a point .. good grief .. the best of thje best dog / handler at some point will make a mistake .... personally i do not rate dogs or people - their capabilities by a one time performance .. and yes - i agree people and dogs do have different talents - THAT is what i look for , what is the talent /relationship - not foolish points. BTW .. THAT is why the SV judge looked at my long hair Sch 1 track .. he was one of several people in my life that tested MY qualifications to TEACH canines !! in any event -- i accept your oulook if you think trachinkg for hard ..ok .. again i shared some simple things about tracking for some folks .. we all are free to establish our own schema and constructs and from that we become what we think ... so good fortune and succes in your training .- AP mystere... many people do other sports eg, ring / mondio not because they are lazy in reagrds to tracking but : 1. the sports , if you tried them , are a lot more fun , 2. less about the handler and MORE about the dog , the dog must think and it is challenged when performing .. Sch is ok , but i have found that many people that have switched from Sch to another sport .. just say.... "wow" !! in my state Sch is defunct .. ALL other european sports have just taken over .. Sch is no where to be found - even if you wanted to do Sch .. .. that is how much the other sports have progressed - not about people being lazy to track in this area .. beleive me .. it's ideal to track in the farms around here !! |
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