German Shepherd Dog > Temperment Testsing (20 replies)
by armauro on 10 May 2011 - 11:59
|Does any one put credence into temperment testing on pups.|
by darylehret on 10 May 2011 - 12:27
Not for the breeder's sake, temperament testing is about capturing a snapshot in time for the visiting observer, due to the visitors limited time constraints and general lack of exposure to the group of pups that are being compared. While there can be a general basis accuracy, there can often be changes to that "snapshot" later on, due to "off days" during testing time for various reasons, or role changes in the social dynamics of the puppy "pack". Two, or even three tests spread between 5 weeks and 8 weeks can be more informative (to the buyer).
by Slamdunc on 10 May 2011 - 12:42
|I perform my own series of tests when selecting a pup. I absolutely believe you tell a lot about a pup and how it will work and it's temperament by 7 weeks. I have been very fortunate picking pups, but I also research the breeder and the litter ahead of time. |
by Mystere on 10 May 2011 - 13:21
|I agree with Slamdunc. I absolutely subscribe to the concept. This has been tested repeatedly over decades.|
by Bob McKown on 10 May 2011 - 14:48
It,s very important to be able to answer questions for prospective homes for puppies about temperment and knowing if the home is going to be approprate for the pup you can,t make the decisions without temperment testing.
For the individual buying a pup it is harder if you only see the pups in the litter once thats why I tell people if you are looking at a puppy make sure the breeder does,nt have a issue with you seeing the pups together and seperatley several times before purchasing. If you don,t have much experience with puppies or young dogs it,s worth your money to find a person who has work and raised and welped litters before to help you evaluate the purchase.
As a breeder it,s your responsibility to be honest about temperment issue,s with your puppies.
I,ve learned a great deal from just the limited litters I,ve had. I spend as much time that I can with my litter interacting with them whatching them grow and interact with each other. It,s very helpful when you own the breeding pair and have raised 1 or both of them from a puppy.
There are so many things you can do to learn how they interpet there surrondings and deal with new experience,s at this age that will tell you how they will cope as adults.
by ALPHAPUP on 10 May 2011 - 20:29
|tempermaent testing does have merits .. true as some posters stated , somethings are constant but somethings change , some traits are latent and really hards to see in pups .. .. But i would like to add another dimension ... again , depends what one has in mind by the meaning of 'temperament"- we can add that as another thread "what is temperament and what comprises temperament. don't assume everybody undersatnds ttmeprament -- they may understand a written state of tests , but does one understand temperament ?? . \|
the other dimension i want to add is : try to look at the pup in behavioral terms , especaily in light for what you will be doing with the pup in life. : do you want a dog that will seek /track /or do search and rescue ? - that is a discussion on what to look for in a pup with that 'trait' expression of skills in terms of what you want to do - do you want a dog for sport or personal protection - different traits to select /look for , again the expression of the behavioral traits will be different . do you want a dog for 'therapy or specific scenting . e.g the big buzz are for dogs needed to scent 'bed bugs' . well other behavioral traits may or may not matter , who cares if this dog is social or aggressive .. you may care or you may not . :
last comment .in reference to temeprament testing .... what is most overlooked / misunderstood overlooked is ' the change of the pup in behavior ' -- for example you may look for a pup with high investigative behavior but if you choose to look at a pup from a litter that seems to be more oinvestigative , now ... wha tdoes the dog do when it has found something ?? what does it do > MY POINT : temperament testing in and of themselves are good .. but limitted , very limitted in regards to how much more info you can obtain about a pup . !!
qucik story . had a friend who wanted to tt my pup . i said this andominant, alpha pup . he crouched down , cuddled the dog , who fout and fouht , struglled , didn't give up [ BTW was the dog scaredor a protester ? that's a differnet issue ] . so he puts the 10 week pup down .. the pups reun 3-4 feet away from him !! in an instant turn , runs bak ... jumps into my friend still crouched down and bites him !! he thought the pup was high in domance , because of the fighting , protesting being held .. i laughed and said ..NO! NO !.. you missed the point .. what is important is what he did after you [tested him] put him down . my friend looked puzzled . and i explained .. this pint sized pup had the audacity to turn challenge you and bite you to boot ..THAT makes this pup dominant [ and aggresive BTW] . so be careful what you read in books .. study the behavior of the pup -IMO
by Ibrahim on 10 May 2011 - 22:21
|If I want a dog to watch and guard property from strangers/intruders and I want it to be suspicious of strangers but at the same time have enough intelligence not to act unless there is true threat to the property, what do I look for in a pup, how can I know this is my pup?|
by ALPHAPUP on 10 May 2011 - 22:57
|Ibrahim - you can extrapolate looking at pups .. BUT ... IMO the most important feature for you in this respect : yhopu must see , know , evaluate or have someone talk to you regarding the sire and the dam : BEACAUSE .. if the parents do not have what you seek ....THEN ... the pups certainly won't either ... why .. because what is passed on is the genetics .. therefore if you see the genetic attributes for your request is not present in the parents , then those attributes cannot be passed on to the pups .. so i guess you can say , temperament evaluation of the pups start with the parentage / lineage 'pedigree .. |
first you want a dog that is reasonably social .. if i look at a litter i want to see none of the pups walk away- i look for them to all come running ... next you want a confident dog with a good stress level , not sound sensitive , one that investigates , an expression of courage and some independence , this will tell me the dog will be able to woprk on it's own , not a daddy's boy /girl .. . but don't pick a dog overly domineering - but some dominance you want , not too overly independent because that could be a sign of future control problems unless you are a good handler ... you want a dog balnced with prey drive , the parents can give you a clue to the ability to defend.. Suspicion levels are to be developed via training at the time the dog is at the correct maturity point .. . .. i would not pick a pup thinking it has suspicious attributes because that can be mistaken for lack of confidence , insecurity . personally i like the pups all of the litter biting off my jeans/pants .. i tie onto my legs bandenas [ ropes] to see the pups pull and tug on them .. i look to see if i push lightly lightly with my hand on a dog if it just walks away or does it engage more so into me ... when doing a task does it give up or is it persisitent? if i drop kindly an empty coka-cola platic bottle does it take not , ok to balk a momment but then does it go over to it right away and inspect it , then what does it do to the bottle ?? another words i am / want to check the stress level of the pup and how it recovers to stimuli and environ ment [ but the paretns should also be indication of stress level . protection /combat is stressful even to epople , even in fun !! also i want to see the interaction of the litter .. All the littermates as they relate/interact to an individual pup will give you info too . OK -- i stop here . i can't write a book- ther's so much more ... [ many of my posts are way to long] . So Ibrahim .. always take a friend with you in picking a pup ... even I take other people too !! GOOD luck
by Ibrahim on 10 May 2011 - 23:04
|Thanks Alphapup, I think I understood most of what you said|
by mirasmom on 11 May 2011 - 20:25
|I temperament test all my adult dogs after they turn 18 months.|
Pups are a crap shoot, but, you want to be able to pick the most outgoing, intuitive,
confident pups when visiting the litter, steer clear of the pups that would rather hide than
meet & greet!
by SandraWeiland on 11 May 2011 - 20:51
|I breed one litter every summer. Doing that allows me to train my dogs the rest of the year, and still have the time and energy to hugely interact with the litter of puppies. I keep a logbook, with one page per week for each puppy. It has seven columns, one column for each day of the week. |
The logbook starts, with one page for each week, from 4 weeks till they are ready to go to their homes at 9 weeks.
I document all health incidents: date of worming, weight checks, vaccinations, trimming nails, tattooing ear and the individual puppy's response to the treatment.
I document interactions noticed between the littermates: dominance, inquisitiveness, leader, follower, etc.
I daily play ball with each puppy. I give half a point for his chasing the ball, and a full point for bringing the ball back to me. Doing this daily from 4 weeks of age, by 9 weeks of age, they will often get 4 or 5 points out of 5.
I document their response to other toys, tugs, and vary the toys that we play with daily.
I document their response to being in a small crate by himself, (the crate is covered with a blanket, and cave like). At first they are only in there for 15 minutes. By 9 weeks, they are quite content to be in the crate over many hours.
I also document what I can see of other behaviors that indicate character and temperament of the puppies... so many things to look for.
I encourage the prospective buyers to visit and see the puppies before the final day; also, take a video of the puppies weekly, so that everyone has a good idea of each puppy's behaviour.
When the puppies are taken home, the future owner has 5 weeks of puppy notes to compare, to help him with his choice. Of course he gets his 5 weeks of puppy notes to take with the puppy.
I have had huge compliments from the buyers of my puppies, that they are easy to housebreak, and don't fuss when in the crate overnight, and have great willingness to learn. i know the breeders of many litters a year don't have the time or energy to do what I do, which is why i limit my litters. For me it is a labor of love, and a joy to do.
by ALPHAPUP on 11 May 2011 - 21:05
|Mirasmom .. i found you post extraorinarily interesting ... that is the first time i have seen anyone do or have the ability to do that ..|
SandraW -- wow ... again very impressive !! - i hope you two are a tribute that ther are amny responsible , conscientious breeders in the GSD .. job well done !! Mira and Sandra [ let's give acknowledgement /credit for them they deserve it ]
by troublelinx on 12 May 2011 - 01:17
|Has anyone created a good video that covers temperment testing?|
I really do lack expertise in this area.
What do you look for in an 8 week old puppy when you want to guage confident defense and protectiveness?
Any one have video that displays these characterists?
by Bob McKown on 12 May 2011 - 01:53
I disagree puppies are a crap shoot, IMHO.
by darylehret on 12 May 2011 - 02:05
|But champions tend to come from champions, rather than slouchbags.|
by Bob McKown on 12 May 2011 - 11:28
There are more levels of dogs then Champion or slouchbags. I really don,t thinkg there are slouchbags out there, You can have a tree full of beautiful apples and the one that tastes the sweetest is the one picked and preparied by a master chef.
I believe there are many very good dogs out there that are only lacking good training and handleing. Every dog has a useful purpose in it,s life whether it,s a top competition dog,police k9,search & rescue, therapy, or just a loved couch tater. they all have a purpose that just needs to be developed.
by darylehret on 12 May 2011 - 12:43
|There are more levels of dogs then Champion or slouchbags.|
Exactly why you shouldn't oversimplify with the crapshoot analogy. It serves no purpose.
by Bob McKown on 12 May 2011 - 13:02
I agree, I don,t believe puppies are neccisarly a crap shoot.
by Cassandra Marie on 12 May 2011 - 15:02
|I do temperament testing on my babies. However, the results of the test on the individual puppy seldom surprises me. The reason being is that while they are still in the whelping box, I spend countless hours and hours playing with the pups, molding their behaviours if necessary, studying their interactions with each other and their environment, introducing them to circumstances that they will more than likely experience as both a working dog and family companion, etc., etc. So I know these little guys intimately. |
So why do I do temperament testing? To confirm what I already know. Further, the new owner gets a copy of the test results and it educates them as to why a specific puppy was selected for them.
by darylehret on 12 May 2011 - 16:35
|Over the process of raising pups for the first several weeks, we as breeders end up making observations on each pup that leave little surprise as to what might be expected in testing results. One of the greatest benefits to temperament testing IMO, is having a long term record of exact results that leave little doubt as to a specific pup's expected potential, when several years or several litters later, your memory will be quite a bit fuzzier. With larger larger samples of a given producer's results among different mates over a longer timespan, you can identify particular trends that occur when 'this' is bred to 'that', or expectant results if a repeat breeding is conducted.|
Of course, the new puppy owner would enjoy having a puppy 'report card', I'm sure. But even more special IMO, would be providing them with a series of video footage of the puppy interacting, and perhaps toss in some detailed descriptions of particular dogs from their heritage.