German Shepherd Dog > SICK PUPPY......Some advice would be GREATLY appreciated! (21 replies)
SICK PUPPY......Some advice would be GREATLY appreciated!
by UglyK9 on 05 May 2011 - 12:56
|Good Morning All,|
If anyone has seen anything like this, has any ideas, or some general advice it would be very much appreciated if you could share. I have a 10 week old pup that is consistently vomiting after eating. This started shortly after bringing him home and was also accompanied by diarrhea in the beginning. He will eat, then will begin to look uncomfortable and I will be able to see his stomach contracting and will sometimes hear a few burps. After vomiting I will allow him to consume what he expelled as he usually does not expel the entirety of his meal and he will then keep it down with what looks like no discomfort. I allow him to consume the expelled food because in the beginning he was rejecting almost all of it and keeping it down the second time, I felt like this was the only way to keep nutrients in him and prevent weight loss. He also consumes water fine and does not seem to be dehydrated. To note, I do not see an affect on his attitude other than after eating. Still playful, happy, barks like crazy, and enjoys sinking his sharp puppy teeth in your ankles when you walk!
He tested positive for coccidia and worms and has been treated for both, with multiple wormings and for the most part his stool has returned to solid. My vet performed Barium X-rays to rule out Megaesophagus, ran a blood pannel and everything thing came back good. Good Thyroid, Good Cell Counts, Good Liver/Kidney function, good enzymes etc.
He was on Orient Large breed puppy before taking him to the vet and was switched to a prescription canned diet for easy digestion. I was mixing a small amount of the Orijen, crunched into a powder and moistened with the prescription diet and was still getting vomiting. Also when I began to bring the Orijen back in stools went soft. I took out the Orijen and went to only the Prescription canned food for a feeding and it is still happened Could he still just be recovering from the coccidia and worms, as it was a pretty heavy infestation, and get over this or do you have any other ideas?
Your input will be greatly appreciated, as I would love to get to the bottom of this and kick the problem. I've got high hopes for the little landshark!
by SitasMom on 05 May 2011 - 13:16
slow down his eating rate..... spread out the food over a large area and let him eat a little at a time, it may help. or only give him a TBS or two a minute and see if it helps.
by UglyK9 on 05 May 2011 - 13:30
|Thanks Sitas appreciate the input!|
Returning the pup for another is not an option. I am going to figure this guys problem out:)
by brynjulf on 05 May 2011 - 14:01
|Did the vet check for megasophagus ( sp) ? SUPER common in GSD. Although it does not usually accompany soft stool.|
by UglyK9 on 05 May 2011 - 14:06
brynjulf - Yes, That was the first thing my vet checked. Ran a Barium X-ray and the vet ruled out Mega-E. Also he is wretching and his gut seemes irritated which indicates that he is vomiting and not regurgitating as is caused by Mega-E. I was very relieved to find out it was not Mega-E.
by Nans gsd on 05 May 2011 - 14:35
|If he was infested with whip worm it takes quite some time for the gut to strengthen. I would wait a while and give him 3-5 days of Panacur, again. l cc per 10 pounds of body weight. Has to be 3 to 5 days consequtively; I would put him on yogart and hamburger and add a little warm water to make it soupy; let him lap it up slowly. Pick up dish after a few laps and then put it down again. Sounds like he is woofing down his food and then refluxing it back up. Possibly eating too fast. I would also add a probiotic, human grade, keep refrigerated. I did not find Orijen was that easy to digest for my guys, remember it is VERY high in protein sources and maybe he can't take that. I would soak his food if you use kibble or just keep him on yogart and hamburger (raw) for a while to see if he gets any better; possibly needs an enzyme to help him to digest his food. He may be a good candidate for Honest Kitchen dehydrated dog food as it soaks and then you can feed it very soupy if you want. I soak the night before and refrigerate or make it in batches but do not let it sit any longer than l-2 days in the refrigerator. Make a fresh batch. My old male who is very hard to keep weight on, very picky and finicky seems to be able to tolerate this pretty well; love the fact that he can lap it up. They have several meat sources and they have Preference which you add your own ground meat or whatever (raw). Raw has some digestive enzymes that other dog foods do not. Best of luck with the little guy; Nan|
by UglyK9 on 05 May 2011 - 14:47
|Nans, Thanks for the Response!|
I am finishing his Third Round of Panacur today. Each round was three days consequitively. I am not sure if he was actually diagnosed with wipworm but he had visible roundworms coming out. As far as Probiotic I found some at a local pet store that I began using, do you think that I should still go with a human grade supplement?
I should have started feeding him in smaller increments in the beginning, good call
I will definately look into honest kitchen, do you have any Kibbles that high quality and easily digestable that, in your experience you could recomend?
by Nans gsd on 05 May 2011 - 15:03
|I would not go with a puppy food; I would use adult kibble; some on this forum are having good luck with Earthborn (Primitive); Taste of the wild (although Taste of the wild did not work for my guys) and kibble is the reason why I went to raw. Yes I would use human grade probiotics; I do not trust the purity of the dog grade probiotic as well as the strength. I know human grade is what it says it is in the ingredients and potency so, keep refrigerated. |
I have a friend that uses GO NATURAL- seems OK; the fewer ingredients listed the better. Cook him a pot of rice or use some human grade Quinoa and make him some food; with that and a little ground meat (human grade of course) or give raw. YOu can make enough food for several days; add an egg, cottage cheese, yogart until his gut settles down. I am sure the Panacur is not helping his gut as it can make them puke. He is obviously trying to shed the worms which can make them puke also. I would give him a dose of something just for round worms in a couple of weeks; and several weeks thereafter until they are gone for good. Guess your breeder did not worm him or if they did med's were obviously effective. Poor little guy, BOL NAn
by Spooks on 05 May 2011 - 16:16
|Exact same subject was covered here>>> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum.read?mnr=111797#112465|
My pup had Isospora a strain of Coccidia and a heavy worm burden.
I imagine you are feeding the pup a food that disagrees with his digestive system. I tried a whole load of foods before finding one that immediately agreed with him and since then he hasn't looked back.
by UglyK9 on 05 May 2011 - 17:48
|Spooks - It looks as though the thread you referenced was more concerning loose stools. I think I have the loose stools under control for the most part. Its the gut Rot causing him to throw up. |
Would you mind telling what foods you found that agreed with your dog?
by Spooks on 05 May 2011 - 18:35
|My pup did throw up for about a couple of weeks or so after being diagnosed finally with Isospora, he was very ill with it and actually was on a drip for 3 days to hydrate him. For the month after he was given Probiotics with one meal and was wormed every two weeks for 8 weeks. We also had him on 4 meals a day, you don't mention how many times you feed a day? Also he was crated for a short while after feeding to keep him calm as running, playing would make him vomit.|
Does your pup gulp his food? Our pup did with to begin with and I put a large stone/rock in his bowl. Overfeeding can cause both sickness and diarrhea.
Do you keep him quiet after a meal to allow him to digest his food? I always wait at least 45 mins after exercise before feeding my 2 dogs and never exercise for at least 45 mins after a meal.
Sorry for all the questions but how old was your pup when you got him?
My pup was 9½ weeks and had been fed on NatureDiet Puppy [wet food in slab packets] we continued feeding him this interlinked periodically with Hills I/D for when his gut got upset, NatureDiet agreed with him but he went off it on its own so we tried mixing it with various kibbles such as the Purina ProPlan Puppy, CSJ Puppy, Eukanuba Puppy and loose stools returned, in the end James Wellbeloved White Ocean Fish Puppy kibble seemed to stabilise him. He is now fed JWB Junior Duck kibble mixed with a little tinned Butchers Puppy and is on 2 meals a day now, he decided himself that 2 meals were enough.
He is now 26 weeks old and can eat practically anything with no gut trouble.
What does your vet say about the vomiting? If it continues I would seek advice from him again, but try the things I have mentioned above.
by hexe on 05 May 2011 - 19:01
|Perhaps I missed it, but did you mention how many meals per day you're presently feeding him? At 10 weeks of age, he should be getting his total daily intake divided into *at least* 3 feedings--4 would be even better, but usually doesn't fit well with owner's work schedules and such. |
Can't say that I'd go the route of soaking his food until it's mush, but I would (and do) add enough warm water to the kibble that it's nearly looks like it a kibble soup. That also helps slow them down, which is a *must* because dogs that 'wolf' their feed tend to also swallow a good deal of air along with it and are at a greater risk of bloating.
You mentioned that the vet did a barium series--was it a complete GI tract series, or did it only image from esophagus to the stomach? If the latter, you might need to consider whether there's an obstruction in the intestinal tract, and additional films would be needed--sometimes the only clinical sign you get of a bowel obstruction or intussusception is diarrhea or regurgitation of feed. He hasn't had any instances of getting into anything that's clothlike and linear, such as a sock or other clothing? Has he eaten any non-food items that you're aware of?
Even if the breeder wormed the pup, that's not going to prevent him from getting reinfected if his environment contained the eggs, and clearing hookworm and whipworm from the ground is difficult to accomplish. Ditto for coccidia.
by UglyK9 on 05 May 2011 - 19:52
|As far as taking measures to keep him quiet, yes I usually try to keep him quiet in his crate an hour before and after I feed him.|
He does eat fast and I should and will begin to use a slowfeed boew. After the vet took the X-ray he said he saw no signs of an obstruction, and he has had good stools sonce he was diagnosed with coccidia. I am currently feeding him Three meals a day but I guess I may need to go to four or 5 and make them much smaller.
What are some good Very Limited ingredient Kibbles other than the ones metioned already? I think I am going to try to feed him boiled beef and rice, with yogurt and maybe an egg here and there for a few weeks to see if it will allow his stomach to heel and then start re-introducing kibble.
by Jenni78 on 05 May 2011 - 21:38
|With multiple wormings after coccidia and worm infestation, you could be dealing with something as simple as a very damaged gut. If he were mine, I would put him on a very high quality probiotic and feed him chicken and rice, and overcook the rice so it's really easy to digest. You could also boil some ground beef for variety. I would also give him digestive enzymes (something like N'zymes) to help him get his intestinal flora back in balance. I had a dog act like this once after multiple wormings, and though unusual, some dogs are just more sensitive than others, and some wormers are harder on the host animal than others. Fenbendazole is great in that it targets the parasitic cells and not the host, so it's quite safe in large quantities and extended periods. |
FWIW, you may also have a stubborn case of giardia on your hands, and I would do a fenbendazole giardia treatment over 3-5 days, and immediately after or during, add the enzymes and probiotics and see what you end up with.
You've ruled out most of the common "big stuff," so I'd look at simple fixes that are often overlooked first, and then look into some of hexe's suggestions and questions about possible obstructions, etc.
I am dismayed that returning him was an answer to your quest for advice. Why are puppies so disposable?
by UglyK9 on 05 May 2011 - 23:46
|So through the advice so far I have decided to go with a chicken and rice or Beef and rice mixture. I plan on adding some greek yodurt in here and there. I also have him on some Pro-biotic tabs. I was wondering, as I have never fed a dog this way compared to a kibble, how much would you feed an 11 pound puppy to ensure that he continues growing and gaining weight? ratio of meat to rice?|
Jenni, He has been through two rounds of panacur which if Im not mistaken has the active ingredient fenbendazole. Would this be affective as my Giardia treatment?
by Spooks on 06 May 2011 - 06:31
|I am surprised your puppy weighs only 11 lbs, do you mean kgs, or has he lost a lot of weight through the coccidia? The pup I mentioned is a Border Collie and he is a small dog as collies go and at 10 weeks he weighed 5kgs [11 lbs] and he was skin and bone underneath all his fur - my German Shepherd at that age weighed 9.7kgs [21.35 lbs]|
I think you should get your pup back to the vet ASAP for further investigations, if it were me I would be very concerned at the low weight he is. The sheps I have had all weighed between 7-11 kgs at 10 weeks old.
I do agree with the last two paragraphs that hexe wrote and with Jenni78 too. I used Purina Fortiflora Probiotic in powder form for 30 days with my pup and are very palatable.
FortiFlora Canine granules are a simple and natural way to aid your dog’s digestion. All pet owners know that from time to time many dog’s experience diarrhea and digestive upset. The usual causes are stress, such as moving house or a period in boarding kennels, a change in diet or simply a weakened immune system due to old age or the use of anti-biotics. Whilst obviously unpleasant diarrhea in dogs is also potentially dangerous as it leads to dehydration, and a further weakened state of health with fewer nutrients being absorbed by the gut.
Purina FortiFlora for Dogs
FortiFlora for Dogs is a probiotic dietary supplement rich in antioxidents, vitamins and minerals. It’s primary ingredient however is the organism Enterococcus faecium, a ‘good’ bacteria that helps restore the guts natural balance. A non-prescription dog medicine it can be extremely useful but you should consult with your vet to determine whether probiotics for dogs are an effective form of treatment for your pet. If so, do buy FortiFlora online to benefit from cheap pet med prices, of course!
The product itself comes in one gram sachets that are simply sprinkled onto your pet’s food. They are reportedly highly palatable and so taken well by most animals. An alternative product Fortiflora for Cats is also available for treating felines.
Young puppies and elderly dogs often experience bouts of diarrhea and may be safely treated with such probiotics. But unexplained recurrent problems of the digestive system should always be discussed with your vet.
FortiFlora Canine supplement contains Animal digest, Enterococcus faecium, L-ascorbyl- 2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin E supplement, zinc proteinate, beta-Carotene, salt, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite and C-4582. It is this C-4582 that provides the guaranteed 1 X 108 CFU/g of naturally occuring live beneficial organisms.
Improving your dog’s immune system and overall health,, along with this influx of beneficial probiotics is a simple way to improve digestion and
by Jyl on 06 May 2011 - 08:42
|When you are ready to go back to kibble I would try the Natural Balance LID diets. As they are VERY limited ingredient. I would try either their venison and potatoe or the Bison and potatoe formula. Another great kibble is Pinnacle... they have a duck and also a fish formula.|
As for probiotics... I use one called ProBios... I get it at a feed store. It is in a powder version. It is also available at Tractor Supply Company.
by realmccoy on 09 May 2011 - 15:41
Is the puppy feeling better since you posted this?
by trac123 on 09 May 2011 - 18:03
Try feding stuff that talks longer to eat i.e. raw chicken wings. See if you can leave out all cereal foods as it is not natural for the canine species. Many manage the substitute but many do not. Dogs do not normally eat cereals for in nature they do not graze. Try lumps of raw beef as well as the chicken wings plus any other raw meat you can get - maybe lamb. Try giving a raw carrot to chew on. Your pup will improve, have no fear. cheers, Margaret
by Jenni78 on 09 May 2011 - 19:55
|Panacur is fenbendazole, correct. Problem is, I don't know what you mean by "rounds." A giardia course is longer and higher dosage than a normal worming course. If he's had enough of it that should've taken care of the giardia, then I think your likely culprit is just a little body that's been overwhelmed with chemical assaults and some good, homecooked food along w/probiotics and enzymes may be a huge help.|