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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > aggression and suspicion in the gsd (58 replies)
by destiny4u on 03 May 2011 - 19:28 |
| shes also licked a few strangers lol but shes onl 15 months old they gota do a more seirous eye stare then just a simple friendly glance also depeonds on the persons body posture if they are standing in a threatening manner or are walking in a creepy way or if they run towards her she will go off but if they kneel on the floor she might go up and give them a lick. I guess it depends on what else the person does with their eye stare. But yeah i have only had her a month and a half and seen her go off in protection trianing and go off on a few strangers she didnt like i am not really happy if a stranger gets on their knees for my dog just because i have seen my dogs aggressive side. That is just stupid to do with ANY STRange dog period. People in my working club dont even pet each others dogs. Put normal pet people in pet smart will allow a strange dog to lick their face. around her fence eye stare or not seems she doesnt want anything around it women man dog cat sheep bird. |
by Rexy on 06 May 2011 - 19:57 |
| Kaoboy, My showline dog in my avatar is over sharp and massively stranger and dog aggressive and became defensive at 4 months old. What I did was exactly as Jim described with the shopping centre work to the point we could stand at the main entrance with the dog in a down as people walked around him. It took 6 months of constant training to raise his confidence and calm him not to react. He's not a dog strangers can pet and I dont trust him off leash around strangers, but he's not reactive any more and behaves well in public in close proximity to people and calm dogs. In the home if people visit, I have him on leash laying on the floor next to me and the only draw back with this temperament type is you can't trust him with anyone who doesn't belong in our family and close friend base to interact freely with them just in case he may get nasty I prefer to keep things positively safe. For a dog who is supposedly a fear biter, we had some break in's around our factory area and my wife convinced me to take the dog when working late one night. He casually wandered out the door of the rear factory where I was working and then I heard him barking and a guy yelling. He had nailed one coming over the fence and the one in the yard he had by the leg when I got up the driveway to see what was going on and were able to hold these two offenders captive with the dog until the police arrived. The interesting aspect is that many believed being an over sharp showline dog in the crunch he would loose his nerve and run away if faced with a real threat. He nailed 2 offenders that night both needed medical attention and the one he had by the leg who was punching him, I had to pull the dog off and restrain him from having another go. There was no backing out on the dogs part, the more the guy punched him, the more aggressive the dog became and I couldn't fault his work ethics to defend and he did a fine job on that night for as useless as many predicted to me he would be if real protection was needed from him???. |
Rexy by brynjulf on 07 May 2011 - 13:44 |
| Rexy, If you can not trust your dog to the extent that he must be on leash. Does he really have good temperment? It's all good that he will bite for you and not back down but in my opinion this is not an example of a good temperment. This just solidifies my opinion on the matter. At 4 months of age I guarantee if a stranger had backed this dog into a corner he would have bitten out of fear. he would have started in defence then as the stranger approach his bark would have changed to that squeely pitch and he would have changed into a fear state. And once again shows me that working dog people do not agree on what a working dog is. ( And i am one of them) Quite frankly i have no interest in spending 6 months trying to adjust a dogs character. This dog would not have proven useful in my kennel. I just don't have time I'll take the confident pup over the suspicious one every single time. Kao you and your pup are just fine! You work with a good club and your breeder will be more than happy to help you :) |
by ALPHAPUP on 07 May 2011 - 14:52 |
| kaoboy ... listen .. it is nice people here share their experiences and some things they have done with similar dogs. i was not going to post ... but then i think :, you have been a member on this forum and that would not be fair to you .. So following the posts is not what you and your dog need. the FACT is that : you need [ whether realized or not] to work with someone , perhaps a good canine behaviorist that can interact with you / the dog / and the both of you ... not just a mere dog trainer . or someone schooled in canine sports- or someone that gives advice !! your need is : someone really really experienced with canine aggresssion . i cannot give you a whole seminar here.. but just for a quick QT .. in regards to other posts : - no - hanging around people with the dog is just MAY not suffice. taking it everywhere etc. MAY just not suffice . every dog / person is a specific dynamic ... there are qualitative and quatitative aspects to handling aggression . yes the stories here help , many good comentaires , .. but when there is a temperament issue /genetic , and envornomental influence ..the Generalities on a forum in 'canine agression ' is not suffice .you may ac tually get youreslf and your doginto some very seriuos trouble !! .......... what am i discussing ? - for example - ok -you take the dog around strangers . but how ??? do you know how ?? - you do not take the dog to strangers at places in such a way that it is beyond the dog's psychological comfort zone [ a so called' critical distance '... ]. and then when you are at the at physical point/ psych point ... or better yet even before you get to that physical distance & psychological distance what are you going to do ?, how are you going to read your dog. ?? how are you going to et up / control the context to accpmlish predetermined beahvioral goals? what type of collar or leash arfe tyou going to use. ... ok you correct the dog .. INCORRECT handling [ correcting} can actually make the matter worse !! you may unkowingly mkae the aggression , the dog , WORSE !! [ again i can't give lseminar/tutorial here]. now the end point [ i disagree here with some posters ] you want for poeple to actually be able to give food to your dog , you want to change the outlook of the dog, the thoughts , feelings , emotions , . your goal [ i think ] is to have the dog become comforatable with people .............. it is going to be a long long time living and handling this dog if you canot have this dog learn to be able to walk up / near people or have them walk up to your dog !! this aggression situation will take a lot of time and effort .. you have to learn what you will able to achieve with this dog and what you will not be able to .. most likely this dog will never be 100% but you can better your dog and the situation .. i think i can with certainty state : you can make some progress , but not the type or amount of progess you dersire , with out professional help !! THAT"S MY 2 cents for what it is worth . |
by Rexy on 07 May 2011 - 15:20 |
| No, my showline dog's temperament is poor and failed the temperament assessment to sit the Schutzhund BH, but was a breeding supposedly suitable for sport and protection work???. These temperaments are popular in Australia for property guarding and security patrol work where the dog has enough gameness to engage and drive to fight with minimal training to protect, although the training effort is teaching the dog not to engage is where the time is spent. I would prefer to train a stable dog to defend than an unstable dog not to, or would I want another dog of this temperament, but my surprise was the way the dog did defend with courage when I had been seriously warned not to rely on him under pressure as he was predicted likely by history of that temperament type to run away if challenged to defend for real???. |
by ALPHAPUP on 07 May 2011 - 16:04 |
Again .. as stated my posts are for people to have words to contemplate .. AGRESSION in canines , whether innate , inherent , trained , promoted is very very very serious .. i have offerend to train peolpe in hand gun use over a protection GSD because it is that seriuos of a matter and rquires skill and knowledge , not for the average person ios a dog suited for .. . now I ALWAYS , ALWAYS , ALWAYS have foremost in my mind other peole reading the posts , not merely the posters is a converstation geared to . . GOD forbid someone tries to take upon thenselves AGGRESSION [ or aggreesion in their dog ] without complete understanding of the canine . - just look and see on the threads , how many visitors that are numbered to a thread. I have also found , so called dog trainers , inept at dealing with aggression , let alone the average person ... so again .. my posts .. are thoughts /words for reflection .if someone wants an unstable dog- capable of agressing .. or a dog with a heightened temeprament flaw to protect , a dog unreliable around people .. ok.. not my place to tell people how to live .. |
by Rexy on 07 May 2011 - 16:25 |
| ALPHAPUP, The canine behaviourist route was the first avenue with my dog after bleeding my wallet and little improvement in the dog, it was a Schutzhund/Police K9 trainer who put me on the right path that worked with my dog. Obviously there are behaviourists with different levels of experience and understanding but the one I hired had many theories on aggression and how to work around it, but nothing really worked. I am not sure that all aggression cases are behavioual issues or something wrong the the psych of the dog at all, aggression can be a socially unnacceptable behaviour in the community that we make a big deal over and for good reason that we don't want our dog biting people and ending up euthanased, but to the dog his aggression role could be simply getting rid of people or dogs that don't belong in his family and friend pack, the dog doesn't relate to community law and understand the boundary lines of his own yard which is sometimes the case and can also manifest more often in guardian breeds. The trainer with my dog said simply he doesn't like strangers and is taking it upon himself to get rid of them so we need to control the situation with obedience and teach him appropriate behaviour. We began sitting at a park bench some distance from the pathway and commanded a sit. Three people walked past and dog broke the sit lighting up on the end of the leash. He was given a correction on each occasion and told to sit. 20 people walked past after the 3rd correction and the dog didn't budge an inch ending our first session. A professional of course is best to assess the individual case to put an effective plan of rehabilitation in place, but sometimes as in my experience I was better off with someone who understood the GSD and could actually train one than a behaviourist with a book full of theories that works on a chimpanzee. |
by destiny4u on 07 May 2011 - 17:35 |
| alphapup pple usually will increase the aggression of their gsd regardless if trainers will help them or not if the gsd is helping them out as a working dog for personal protection, If anyone goes out spends a lot of money on such a dog they are going ot make use of the dog. gsd that have a lot of natural aggression in them it is easy for their owners to bring out. If a trainer refuses to to help train those dogs then the owners are faced with bringing out that aggression themselves? Kinda like what rexy is doing. |
by ALPHAPUP on 07 May 2011 - 18:20 |
| Rexy ... this is good .. you shared your situation about your dog ... and perhaps that sheds more light on the fact that interacting with your dog is a big resposibility .. hope your experience and the shared fact that you sought others helpnot only encourages others [ that come to read these threads ]but instill upon them to do so if they so need . I commend you in that respect and for trying to iron out the situation - . AP.. |
by ALPHAPUP on 08 May 2011 - 19:25 |
| getting back to the one word ... "sharpness' .. two points to make ... 1. as i have stated over and over .. many of you folks posted have seen this ": if you talk in categoricals or cliche words you are going to misread the dog , misunderstand it .. and the rest of your training , call it what you will , it will be affected. an animal : even humans : in response to a stimulus , any stimulus , the behavioral response falls into several preconditioned genetic /innate categories - Ok anyone going to rebtule this statement ? they are : FRIGHT /FLIGHT/ FIGHT / { neutral } , when you say "defense drive " you are going to get into trouble ... they are ALL forms of defense .. self preservation !! therefore when thinking of a response of an animal to a stimulus you look at the reaction and how the dog copes [ related to stress level genetically] - that is to say ... does it recover ito unfamiliar and check it out , or does it flee , which a fearful avoidance /defense... or does it innately become agggresive , a defense, when encounters by something unfamiliar ? or is so affected it freezes / shuts down, fright ?? Sharpness is a function / manifetstation of all of these. that is to say .. a dog can be startled by something unfamiliar ,FLEES a small distance , but does not recover quickly to check it out or never recovers . it takes a more time for the dog to cope than normal .. the dog does not have to aggress to defend itself. , the situation is that it's stress level it does not alllow it to cope the way it should .. there need be no aggression . THIS DOG IS SHARP !! IT exhibiterd an exagerated defensive behavior !! ?** now if you have a pup that with a similar stimulus , but aggresses to the unfamiliar , that to is a flaw. because that also is an exaggerated defense response. THIS DOG ALSO IS SHARP ...BOTH DISPLAYED an abnormal response / both are SHARP ! the flight/ fight are not what we wish to see , do you ?? .. now .. you know this from temperament tests in print : what do they tell you to look for in a dog /pup ?? one when uncounters a stimulus , is ok to statrle for a split second but then will immediately bounce back /recoved to check it out !! THIS is normal for a well bred GSD !! you Sch folk know this selecting your pups !! now to hear about different lines Czech/ Belgium/ German / French and to say this is the lines or that is in the lines is hog wash ... ALL GSDS should have good stress level , nerve and display confidence ... same with gunfire .. it is a genetic trtait .. you want a dog to look , take note , but you don't want the dog to go into battle beacuse it hears a gun shot neautraly away from it , nor do you want the GSD to hide /step behind the owner.. Aggression is one dimension of a dog that is SHARP ... a exagerated aggressive dog may be sharp but a sharp dog does not by defintion have to be aggressive [ it can flee ., run for the hills] ... BTW i did not include a fear biter , because that is SHARPNESS with one further demiension to it !! ...... and to complicate matters .. one can have a dog that is very dominant , seems very confident , but a stimulus triggers such an insecurity that this dog , the dog becomes in such conflict within itself , the dog can be coined as " bipola |
by Rexy on 08 May 2011 - 20:05 |
| Sharpness in relation to working dogs as I understand and is generally described by most is the dogs threshold to act in a hostile manner to a perceived threat, hostile meaning aggressive. A sharp dog would be in that case, a dog that lights up in aggression fast with little provocation. As an example, if someone walks out of an alley way and appears suddenly in front of handler and dog, a sharp dog will light up in aggression. If someone runs across the road heading directly towards handler and dog, a sharp dog will light up in aggression instinctively with that type of stimulus. If you dropped the leash in this model with a sharp civil dog, the dog would instictively engage and bite the subject. |
by kaoboy on 08 May 2011 - 23:26 |
| ALPHAPUP AND ROXY: Im glad you guys have brought up the SHARP diccusion. we had a helper/trainer from the U.S., he came to B.C. for a training session. We worked with my dog and other dogs too. We had figure out what i need to do to make it better. it wont make my dog friendly as hell to anyone. but it shows him that it is ok. people and other objects/animals are ok. they are not scray etc. We talked for abit, did alot of training in protection and playing bitework etc. he did great for 8 months. they said they expected less from him, since of his age. but him and his wife was really impressed. i have steped up my training with my puppy. both in commands, and play time. trying to make it clear for him, what i want him to do. not black and white. but he said my dog is really sharp, he has a high defensive drive for a young puppy. but his prey is also great too. i am acepting that my puppy isnt going to be the dog i really want. but that said, i am happy with the way things are going. plus it helps when someone that has been doing this for 30 years says. he will be easy to title. it raelly boost up me the handler and that always boost up the dogs confidence and mine as well. he also showed me how to just keep my emotions when walking by people in the safe zone. if that makes sense to you. just dont even know they are there. done it today. and wow. he didnt even notice. i just walked right by. he look alot more self assure of himself. just wanted to share, how hes coming alot. -Nick |
by wanderer on 08 May 2011 - 23:36 |
| I have a female WG Working lines. She is confident, neither aggressive nor suspicious. She is 100% reliable in all situations. Sound in mind and character. This is a true account of what happened to us today. (She has pups 2 and a half weeks old).
This is a true horrible situation that just happened to me and to Nadja. Took her to the park for a little tug play and ob to give her a break from puppy sitting. Doing hier and fuss etc. and we get pounced on by two young bull dog types and I tell her "Platz"!" She does, and I also tell her "Leave it!" when the two young dogs won't leave and are all over her. I yell to the owners, at least 300 yards away to "GET YOUR DOGS!" Of course, they have no control and their dogs don't have any idea what they are being told to do nor why their owners are yelling. So I take my leash and snap one of them, which is on top of N, on the nose and yell at it to get out of here. The big guy (very big guy) owner then starts running at me with arms waving that I hit his dog and he's going to teach me a lesson. I get scared and tell N (still in a platz), to "break" and put the leash on my hip and tell her "watch him." She takes up protection position and the bark and guard and it's just like the courage test only for real! The guy stops in his tracks and picks up his dogs and high tails it out of there. I have never had such a scary incident with my dogs. But I was aboslutely prepared to keep my girl safe, even if I had to step in. |
wanderer by destiny4u on 09 May 2011 - 02:18 |
| i have been in incidents like that aas well with my 15 month old she wont back down from a charging man with or without a stick while she is at the end of leash barking but what she would do if the man attacked her or me is a whole diff story. If the dog hasnt trained for it no idea what will happen. |
by troublelinx on 09 May 2011 - 03:17 |
| Rex, I really dont like the SL due to what I have seen of them, most of them anyways. But if the dog handeled two groun adult men, is difficult to say any thing bad about that. Sounds like a rough begining end good end result for a PP dog, quite effective for your situation. |
troublelinx by Rexy on 09 May 2011 - 05:01 |
I have a 15 month old working line dog we are training in sport and there is no comparison in terms of drive and temperament stability between the two, but the showline dog has an unusual temperament and difficult to understand from what you would expect of a showline dog. The lines have been used in security and police work and the breeder of this dog guaranteed the males in these lines will have strong territorial aggression, she was correct in every way describing from a pup how he will turn out. |
by destiny4u on 09 May 2011 - 17:15 |
| rexy how do you expect your 15 month old to change from now until 2? do you expect much temperment changes? |
by Rexy on 09 May 2011 - 18:21 |
| Destiny4u, I am not sure to be honest what changes his temperament will take until 2 years old? He's been fairly consistant in temperament since 12 months. |
by ALPHAPUP on 09 May 2011 - 18:32 |
| nick ... this is the point .. whether working with someone , or just having your own dog .. to be able to understand and recognize the dog .. some dogs are innately predisposed to handle situations by aggressing /asserting themselves .. sometimes that doesn't have to manifest itself in aggressive biting- they just are extremely reactive .. some dogs have an innate instict is to have an exaggerated /intensified reaction . this is why i don't lgenerally use the word sharp .. but for someone like yourself knowing your dog .. that is what makes us be able to channel our dogs , guide them and teach expectations in life. DESTINY : temperament never never , ever changes , character and other attributes can be affected ., like you increase condidence -- but temp. , that is the genetics of the dog .. like saying can the color of the yes change . Kaoboy -- thanks ... i can see .. some people don't understand , sharpness does not have to be one direction ->[ to the right] aggression / biting /everly reactive to fight [ + reation ] .............. i get the gist .. many here miss my point : Sharpness , <----- , can go into the opposite direction- th left , just the dog chooses to flee , that is , it flees like lighteneing , an intensified , exagerated respone : a dog running away like a bullet for something non-threatening , a normal environment ; that is SHARPNESS also [ the, - side ] .. ?? you want to call Sharpness ' an intesified exagerrated behavioral response ?? . I do !! Star Wars analogy , the light side of the force vs, the dark side of the force . i know , you folks that do sports only talk about sharpness as it correlates to aggression / civil .. So rhetorically for you folks : does a dog aggress abruptly because it is fearful, insecure , unsure , or because it is dominant , assertive , a confident controler ?? so i am asking .. does sharpness cover all of these types of canine behaviors /or canines ?? yes some , dogs can react to aggress , be civil ... be strong . but my point in the posts .. we better understand the why and how of our dogs amke-up and behaviors rahter than genralized terms !!.. i have seen dogs called sharp that were normal genetics and others called sharp but they were really temp flawed .. CAN we read the dog and tell the difference ?/ Can you tell a dog that has not been socialized properly or a dog that is just [ as the standard calls for freindly but aloof ] just indifferent ? so again , great nick you understand your dog ...that is why you will handle ypour dog well !! because with trying to use terms we can really really get mixed up !! |
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