German Shepherd Dog > Why are Showlines generally priced higher than Working Lines?? (194 replies)
by CMathis on 27 April 2011 - 10:44
|If schutzhund ceased to exist I think the dogs would eventually be more middle of the road. Most people do not want a dog with crazy drives just as most people do not want a dog that is incapable of doing anything useful. I think the higher drive dogs would find work as police dogs, military dogs, or personal protection dogs. I think the dogs that are not so driven for protection work would find work as sheepherding dogs or service dogs. There would be uses for dogs of sound temperment and good health. |
by Keith Grossman on 27 April 2011 - 12:34
|"The WL sometimes down the SL the SL people down the WL."|
Actually, I often see WL people disparaging SL's but almost never see SL people disparaging WL dogs.
by judron55 on 27 April 2011 - 13:07
|JMNSHO......the same temperament needed for schutzhund is needed for herding....being hit by a soft stick is nothing compared to being hit by a unruly sheep...anyone stating different is misguided.|
I do helper work on all breeds...I have worked 4 S/L shepherds that I would put up against any W/L shepherd. They were imported from Germany...I'm also working 3 S/L right now that will have a hard time getting a BH....let alone a schutzhund 1. I'm working 9 W/L shepherds that will be titled....2 Dobermans that are as ill equipped for bite work as the S/L shepherds...2 malinois that are titled.
People keep talking about real work for dogs...like the work most GS did is still viable. As the jobs have changed....man has changed the temperament of the dog. I have paid as much as 2400 for a 15 month old bitch....I can get a pup now for 450 that has excellent breeding. Just the facts folks...just the facts....
by steve1 on 27 April 2011 - 13:42
|There simply would not be enough jobs to go around for all the WL and SL dogs working in there own sports if both were to stop, It is the WL Sch sport which holds the key, that stops then the SL line will stop, no Schutzund work for them to do or try, just running round the ring and competing on conformation only, it would soon lose favour,|
Then what for these noble dogs nothing at all, the work would not be there for the huge volume of the dogs
Me' i am an out and out WL Sch person, but i know the work that goes into getting a SL ready to compete at a high level but that side is not for me but i still admire both the dog and the handler of those dogs they all have a place and they can work together BETTER than us humans can,
But 'Hey' is that any suprise, i think NOT.
by Bob McKown on 27 April 2011 - 13:56
| Judron and Slamdunc: opinions please.|
You both have worked WL and SL lines and been involved with the titleing and obviously the training and doing the helper work. I,ve always found that if you want to get honest info on a dog ask the helper not the handler.
What do you think would happen if the Sch 1 were done as a regional trial only for the GSD. A 3 day event first day Sch1 2nd day conformation 3rd Day Kore class. For the dog to recieve the Sch1 he would have to complete all 3 days.
The criteria for the 1 would be as it is presently with the exception of including the attack on the handelr out of the blind and also a old stlye catch where the helper runs out the dog is sent and the helper turns on the dog for the attack for the courage test.
Possibly a vertical wall jump also.
The same helpers on all dogs WL and SL no changing judges the same helpers showing the same intensity doing all the work.
Would this not be a better test for a breeding title then the current?
by Gustav on 27 April 2011 - 15:24
|I get tired of people that CAN'T read. Nobody says that ALL show lines can't work.....they usually say that a disproportionate amount for the integrity of the breed don't work. Its people who refuse to acknowledge truth that's killing the breed. It is seldom that I see a SL do GREAT work, good work yes....great work...not as often as the greatness of the breed should dictate they possess. This is fact....changing statements to "I'm tired of ALL SL being put down or can't work " is an emotional response that changes what is being said so that a few isolated examples can be made. If you have to resort to this to make your point....then you make my POINT! I have more respect for the people who openly say I don't breed nor really want a top working dog, then the people who give misleading statements like "there are good and bad working dogs in both lines" ....yeah but if one is 70% and the other is 25%....then that statement distorts the reality of the working status of each line. Hey Folks, it is what it is....but indignation and misleading staements that harbor a grain of truth is not going to change the equation. Talk to guide people or law enforcement people about whether they look for dogs out of the SL anymore. They don't! There is a reason, and it is not bashing!!! Sure there is one out of thirty law Enforcement dogs you may know that does real work and is SL, but the other 29 arent! And again there is a reason...and until some of you get you nose out the air and realize what the real working trainers already know..Well it will continue.....in a handbasket!!!|
Keith, you are right, most SL people don't criticize WL....I have no problem agreeing with you on that as the beauty is an opinion, but whether the dog can work or not is pretty factual.
Rik, You are a showline person and I respect your posts the most because though you acknowledge you love for SL and your participation for years, you clearly acknowledge where they have gone wrong and people like you will change equation over time, but the enablers....never!!
by Keith Grossman on 27 April 2011 - 15:32
|"Talk to guide people or law enforcement people about whether they look for dogs out of the SL anymore. They don't!"|
Increasingly, they're not using GSD's at all.
by SonyaBullinger on 27 April 2011 - 16:28
|The police force is increasingly not using GSDs, why?|
I have heard about it, but is it really true?Why the malinois?
by Keith Grossman on 27 April 2011 - 16:33
|Mals and dutchies.|
by Bob McKown on 27 April 2011 - 16:53
I hear that alot but every time i see a k-9 vehicle it has a German shepherd in it? yes i,ve seen the dutchies and Mali,s also but not with the frequency of the GSD. Our local sheriffs dept has 1 GSD and 1 Dutchie.
I still think the over whelming count would have the shepherds account for more animals. I could be wrong.
by zdog on 27 April 2011 - 17:09
|Funny, 2 dogs added here, both GSD's. Two more coming this summer, both GSD.|
I think someone spends too much time reading the internet
by Chaz Reinhold on 27 April 2011 - 17:10
|Bob, you're forgetting about federal and military if just in the US. Outside the US, I think they are more hip to what's going on in the dog world. Jim will tell you too. Many handlers have gone to a Mali and back to a GSD. I prefer a West Highland|
by zdog on 27 April 2011 - 17:24
|Bob, I like your ideas. Depending on the numbers, I think 2 days would be ok and preferred for me.|
I'd like the attack out of the blind to come back, but if we're doing it all on one weekend and a breed survery is done, then I'd rather we borrow a bit from the ring folks and throw a bunch of obstacles out, a minimum of say 3 or so between blinds (barrells, propped plywood, hanging tarp, whatever you have to make to hide behind easily more portable blinds would be ok) and on competion day, the judge decides where the helper will attack out of.
Enough of this heel 10 feet and then the helper hops out and gives a prey bite. Make the picture different and make it an intense attack.
I'd welcome a wall, more points for a higher wall, but I would like the ramp on the other side coming down. at least I'd use one in training.
I'm not familiar with the old long bite. I think it's ok just like it is. If i'm understanding you correctly you'd run out, then away, then turn and come back?
by judron55 on 27 April 2011 - 17:36
|Bob...all aspects of what you say is fine with me....Attack out of blind...old style courage test....scaling wall...all fine with me! Three day trial would be great...wouldn't take much time...there would probably be plenty of PULLS!!!!|
by Keith Grossman on 27 April 2011 - 18:09
|"Funny, 2 dogs added here, both GSD's. Two more coming this summer, both GSD.|
I think someone spends too much time reading the internet"
And where is here?
by Bob McKown on 27 April 2011 - 18:28
The attack on the helper out of the blind is just that. When you watch how it is done today the helper steps out with immediate focus on the dog. The way it was originated was that the helper would run out of the blind with full attention focused on the handler with no que,s to the dog and the dog must intervene in the attack and thwart it with strong gripping.
The courage test started with the helper running away from the handler and dog and at some point the judge signals for the dog to be released and when the dog is 20 or 30 feet from the helper he would switch directions and run back at the dog.
If they would pull they would not get there Sch1 and they would have to wait till the next regional trial.
by sueincc on 27 April 2011 - 19:18
|Hi Bob, You didn't ask me, but you are 100% EXACTLY right! I would love it if we rolled back the schH rules, bringing back those elements that were taken out, would be fine as frogs hair as far as I'm concerned. I was stunned when the attack on the handler out of the blind was removed from the scH1. Waht passes for it in the working test at shows is not the same at all, it's nothing. I was told the reason the exercise was removed from schH1 was because they rolled back the age requirements so younger dogs could title, so then supposedly that exercise was too "stressful" on the younger dogs. What a bunch of crap! If a dog is too young to handle exercise then wait until it matures, deleting the exercise was just ass backwards. I would very much welcome them bringing back that exercise, go back to the old courage test, add a vertical wall. I especially like your suggestion that helpers work all dogs the same, that should go without saying, all the schH1s should be worked the same, the 2s worked the same, the 3s worked the same. |
by Bob McKown on 27 April 2011 - 19:40
I guess what I,m getting at is let the prices fall where they may, as long as one knows that all the dogs that are titled equally had to pass a unbiased test to start I believe the SL vs WL debate would decrease significantly and working together would be less abrasive to some.
Lets actually do some thing that would help the breed, not continue to crutch it along as some do.
by Gustav on 27 April 2011 - 20:46
|Keith, Keith Keith.....smiling,....seventy percent of the German Shepherds in Europe are SL. Sooooooooo if what you say is true about them going away from using GS, and 70% are SL????, this ain't hard to figure out. And the MAJORITY of the GS you DO see in these vocations to include SAR, is WL. Hey Grandpop always tole me" Lies don't figure and figures don't lie!" It doesn't make a difference which perspective you look at it from, people who really care about the Breed, don't want to compromise working ability in a working dog. I like the color of Black and red personally, but to me a GS without swag and courage is not beautiful regardless of color or structure.|
by Keith Grossman on 27 April 2011 - 20:58
|Gustav, Gustav, Gustav...I was speaking of service dogs used by PD's here in the states and here in Indianapolis, where we have one of the largest police canine sections in the country, I have seen a marked increase in the use of mals and especially dutchies by our PD. I suspect the switch is as much a financial issue as anything but it is what it is. It's been 25 years since I've lived in Germany so I really can't speak to what the Polizei are using these days.|