German Shepherd Dog > Score book (39 replies)
by gck on 18 April 2011 - 03:00
|The WDA harbors no scorebook prejudices. UScA Scorebooks are recognized by the WDA, and UScA members are welcomed (without prejudice) to participate in WDA SchH trials at the club and regional levels. (National and WUSV qualifying events, however, have specific membership stipulations).|
Thanks to a new policy, recently adopted by the WDA and the GSDCA, all WDA issued scorebooks enjoy the joint endorsement of the GSDCA. Newly issued scorebooks from the WDA office carry the joint WDA and GSDCA logos. Anyone with a currently valid WDA scorebook may obtain a free replacement, dually issued (WDA and GSDCA) scorebook cover simply by contacting the WDA office.
To be clear, the full validity (for UScA purposes only) of these jointly issued WDA and GSDCA scorebooks, depends upon the individual owner or co-owner's or handler's membership situation. (At least as I currently understand UScA policies.)
Any owner/co-owner/handler who is either a GSDCA or an SV member (that is, a WUSV Member Club member), who possesses a jointly issued WDA & GSDCA scorebook for a particular dog, may not be refused entry into any UScA trial event.
Questions and/or UScA official clarifications welcome! 412-480-7307.
by Hedi on 23 November 2011 - 12:40
|I am looking the UScA website and directly on their application here is what it says,|
"USA CERTIFICATION OF FOREIGN or NON USA SCOREBOOKS
Scorebooks issued by other clubs, SV, DVG, ADRK, etc. (with the exception of scorebooks issued by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America, WDA) can be USA-certified by sending the original scorebook, a copy of the dog’s registration papers and a copy of your current membership card to the USA Office. The appropriate fee(s) are as follows: if
you are a current USA member, the cost would be $10.00. If you are a non-member, the fee would be $40.00."
So there is discrimination. What does the SV or WUSV think about this? Is this supported?
by Mystere on 23 November 2011 - 13:37
|The SV doesn't care. It only cares about recognition of its judges.|
by VKGSDs on 23 November 2011 - 14:00
|I just trialed two weekends ago and STILL don't have this sorted out, lol! I am now a USCA member and my dog has both scorebooks (well the USCA one is the AWDF one since he's purebred GSD). I entered a USCA trial, but his previous entry was in the WDA scorebook at a WDA trial (SV judge). I photocopied that page and stuck it in my USCA book. Didn't have any problems trialing. Not sure if I can do the same, photocopy THAT new title from the USCA book and stick it in my WDA book and trial at the next level? The USCA trial was under a USCA judge, not SV.|
PS. Gayle can we get this new WDA scorebook replacement if we are no longer a WDA member? My WDA scorebook is from 2009.
by Hedi on 23 November 2011 - 16:08
|GSDCA-WDA will accept the title. Does not matter, you do not need to photocopy it. You appeared to have said the magic words "SV" judge. Not sure why you would want 2 scorebooks. In all honesty it should not matter. IMO as long as you have a scorebook you should be able to trial anywhere. From a finiancial standpoint it would be more advantageaus for UScA to accept the GSDCA-WDA books and allow them to be "certified." |
So I wonder if the WUSV cares? Since both organizations are members of the WUSV.
Do we as schutzhunders support this? How does this add anything positive to the sport?
by VKGSDs on 23 November 2011 - 16:27
|Hedi I needed two because I was told the USCA would not accept the WDA scorebook (but would accept the title since it was issued by an SV judge). The dog started out in WDA. I was a WDA member and got his scorebook when I sent everything in at 8 weeks figuring I'd just do it all at once. So he started with a WDA trial. Then he did a trial for SDA tracking, obedience, and protection and they record their titles in the AWDF scorebook so I got the USCA/AWDF book. Then we entered a Schutzhund trial this month and it was a USCA trial and I was told to copy the WDA results and stick it in the USCA book so that's what I did.|
I don't support this but what can I do about it? All I want is to train and trial my dog. Every time what seems like a simply entry becomes a process of obtaining this book or this verification or "certifying" this or that. Good grief!
I was amazed when I inquired about showing my dog in the Canadian Sieger show, all they needed was my entry fee and a copy of the AKC paper. No "certified pedigree", no tattoo verifications, no additional memberships or registries.
by Hedi on 23 November 2011 - 20:54
Wow that stinks. I am sorry to hear of the troubles you had with this. That just plain old sucks.
Maybe if enough schutzhunders expressed dissatisfaction with this...something would change? I feel the same way you do...all I want is to train and trial. There are great people who are members of either organization with nice dogs. Okay, you do not want someone to be members of both....great, okay. The prohibition and discrimination of titles and scorebooks is a little "old school." It is a shame. I will continue to not like or understand the rationale behind this.
by Kevin Nance on 02 December 2011 - 00:33
|While I can not speak for UScA, I would personally find it distasteful to accept a "working dog" scorebook from an organization (GSDCA) who neither advocates nor requires standards for breeding the German Shepherd Dog other than pure bred. No temperament, health, conformation, breed survey, or titles needed and the result to which the overwhelming majority of their members aspire is the American Showline. Kevin Nance|
by Kevin Nance on 02 December 2011 - 00:39
|BTW, I have many, many friends within WDA with whom I share common values regarding the preservation of the German Shepherd Dog's working heritage. GSDCA does not share that priority but merely "allows" it within the minority ranks of WDA. Kevin Nance|
by Hedi on 02 December 2011 - 01:19
|Kevin, sounds like you agree with UScA's policy of discrimination regarding scorebooks, since as posted above, these new scorebooks are jointly issued. I personally know of some UScA members who breed dogs with no titles, no breed survery, or temprament testing. How does that happen? In the US as long as it is "pure bred" you can reproduce it and get issued a pedigree. Does that mean that UScA supports this as well? They do not outwardly state they do....but what/who is there to stop them from breeding these dogs? The pedigree gets issued and these dogs get sold. Distaste is in the eye of the beholder and the practices of the people. Anyway, off topic....I will continue to schutzhund/IPO or whatever "they" call it and continue to be baffled by all the scorebook dilemmas in this country.|
by Kevin Nance on 02 December 2011 - 01:36
|Hedi, fair enough on all counts. That you choose to train and title your dogs garners my full respect regardless of any "affiliation." UScA does maintain a breed registry based upon the SV model to include "pink papers." And, you are absolutely correct that the majority of members from both organizations do not fully "walk the talk" nor is there any disciplinary mechanism in place to encourage member adherence like with the SV. But, here is a key starting point, UScA maintains a registry that represents the standard that at the least many of us give "lip service" to. GSDCA represents an organization who's standards for registry are non existent beyond purely bred. Such a baseline position from a huge "parent" organization with it's own priorities is not an optimal starting point for the preservation of our breed. JMO and I am fully respectful of those who feel otherwise. Kevin Nance|
by Hedi on 02 December 2011 - 12:11
|You can also take the other side of the coin and look at some of the German showlined dogs, who are issued a working paper, that are bred. Does the SV have a standard? Yes and it is regimented and can appear rigorous. I have experience with some of these dogs that should never be bred, and they have the pedigree and the titles issued from the SV. I have run my fair share of circles and hills. There is crap everywhere. I understand your concern. I personally do not care much for the show aspect. I prescribe to the working dog and if I get a "G" rating I am fine with that. If the dog works, let it work....I do not think that stupid paper politics should interfere with the working. If a dog who's owner is a GSDCA-WDA member has a good dog....bring it on at a UScA event, at any trial or any field. Scorebook garbage politics should not interfere with the work, and it does. If the dog sucks, it will run....bottom line. I have little experience in the United States and still think all this scorebook prejudices silly and hurts the sport. It is not like there are tons of clubs in this country to begin with and this adds to it. Both organizations are members of the WUSV, WE compete on the same WORLD TEAM!!!! Instead you have people who are having to worry about their "scorebook" and who their judge was when they earned their title. Sad state of affairs and I do not support it. |
I think we could be potentially one and the same....work the dog. I would have to say our differences are the fact that you support the divide in not accepting the scorebook, which I think is garbage policy. You articulation is that the lack of standard. I think there is garbage in any organization and think that all scorebooks should be accepted anywhere at any trial. Guess I will order my SV scorebook to avoid all the garbage policy and maintain my membership there to avoid being discriminated against here in the US and trial anywhere I choose....
by Smiley on 02 December 2011 - 12:15
|I am REALLY confused. I called USA yesterday (the main number) and they told me that a person MUST be a member of USA to show at any USA event (even local breed shows). Then, she told me that I may not be a member because I am a member of the GSDCA. So, as of yesterday, I was told that I may not participate in any USA events.|
by Dog1 on 02 December 2011 - 13:31
|When I asked USA if they accepted the GSDCA-WDA scorebook, I was told point blank they would not. Has anyone been successful having one of the GSDCA-WDA scorebooks accepted?|
by Gustav on 02 December 2011 - 13:33
|Children and toys!!!|
by VKGSDs on 02 December 2011 - 15:09
|Dog1 I got a USCA scorebook but inserted a photocopy of a title from a WDA scorebook and they didn't say anything. I never tried to give them the WDA scorebook though.|
by Dog1 on 02 December 2011 - 16:42
You have missed about 2 years of on the job training to navigate the USA/WDA dilemma created by USA known commonly as the 'JA'. Do a search and I think you will find enough information about it. It's a dead horse that's been beat too many times.
Since you are a member of the GSDCA a 'competing German Shepherd organization' you cannot be a USA member. Since you are a GSDCA member,,,,which is a WUSV member you can participate in all USA events. Go back and read the last two sentences a couple of times and you'll eventually understand it.
Make sense? No? OK, we agree nothing about it makes sense. You just have to accept it.
by Smiley on 02 December 2011 - 18:06
I apologize! I am not trying to be difficult!! I just want to be able to show my pup for a rating and I want it to be able to count!!
I tried to order the USA magazine and they said I can't. I am not a USA member. So, I tried to become a USA member and they said that I can't because I just (5/2011) became a GSDCA member.
So, I tried to join a USA club so that I could see if my pup had schutzhund potential but I couldn't because I am a GSDCA member. What stinks is that there are a crapload of USA clubs in my area and hardly any WDA ones. I called one and they are no longer affiliated. The other moved to NY but I told them I am still interested as it appears I need a WDA club.
I inquired about showing my girl at a german style USA conformation show in my area (CT or NH) and I was flat out told by USA that I could not because I can't become a USA member because I am a GSDCA member.
I am totally and completely confused. I am sorry. *sigh*
I just want to be able to attend a local show and try to acquire a rating that will be recognized by everyone. I hope to maybe look into doing the breed survey thing with her as well......
Again, my apologies. I don't know about any past history regarding this issue. I am new to everything.
But..while I am posting....do I need a scorebook for the german conformation rating or just the breed survey. Maybe I don't even need a scorebook yet?
by Smiley on 02 December 2011 - 18:27
|Ok..after I posted I called USA yet again..in tears and utterly confused. I know, I am too sensitive.|
Anyway, the woman said I was given the wrong information yesterday and this is what she told me:
I *can* be a GSDCA member and trial or do a conformation show at USA events and do so as a NON-MEMBER of USA.
BUT, I need to also be a member of the SV, DVG, or AWDF (I hope I wrote down the initials correctly). She may have said another one too.
Then, I would need to attain a SV, DVG, or AWDF scorebook. Apparently, I only need this scorebook for titles and not for a breed show rating.
I can then show at USA events as a NON-MEMBER.
If I show at a GSDCA-WDA event in conformation than I need to make sure the judge is an SV judge and then USA will recognize it.
So, this is the new information I received today! It's good news...I think!!!
by VonIsengard on 02 December 2011 - 18:49
|The whole thing is a ridiculous mess. Thank you Gayle, for trying to clarify, although it appears UScA is not on the same page judging by what Sara was told.|
I am not a big supporter of what GSDCA has done to the breed in the last 40-50 years either, but if we want change it must come from within. So either join and help outnumber those that thumb their nose at a working standard, or ignore GSDCA completely. Since the GSDCA, is, through the AKC, the SV and FCI recognized registry in USA. No matter how ill that makes you, ignoring it will do nothing to stop, and maybe someday reverse, the damage the American show type has done to a working breed. That's my two cents.
I know WDA is not a perfect organization either, but while UScA's policies continue to make entry a nightmare to owners and breeders who only want to support a working breed standard for the GSD, I will not support any UScA event with my entries, nor will will I encourage any of my clients or puppy buyers to do so.
If and when the JA is ever lifted, I will happily rejoin UScA and send a letter of thanks with my check. The working dog needs support, and I will gladly give it. Trialing and showing is time consuming, stressful, and expensive enough as it is without buying stock in Advil to combat all the migraines sifting through this disaster will give you. No thanks.
I sincerely hope the UScA comes to understand the frustration and confusion this causes, and that it IS turning people off to the sport. Mutual respect between the organization will only do the breed good in the long run- isn't that what these clubs were created for in the first place?