German Shepherd Dog > Just wondering...What would you get if you bred two Bi-colors together? (17 replies)
Just wondering...What would you get if you bred two Bi-colors together?
by mirasmom on 30 March 2011 - 23:09
|I was wondering what you would get if you bred two Bi-colors together.|
I just had a litter of pups from two sable parents, and I have 2 bi-colors and 1 dark black & red, and the rest sables.
I have a Bi-color and his sire is sable and the dam is black & red.
Has anyone out there bred two Bi-colors together, and what colors did they produce?
by gagsd4 on 30 March 2011 - 23:16
|Bi-colors and blacks would be the only possibilities. (Assuming really a bicolor and not a dark blk/tan)|
by troublelinx on 31 March 2011 - 00:56
|Somewhere black and brown|
by Jenni78 on 31 March 2011 - 01:05
|Bi and black, I think.|
by Jeff Oehlsen on 31 March 2011 - 01:45
|Hopefully you will get pups that work well. However, if you have sable in the line you can get them as well. Not something I would think about. : )|
by gagsd4 on 31 March 2011 - 01:59
|You will not get sable without a sable parent (or white dog that carries sable). Mary|
by eichenluft on 31 March 2011 - 02:29
|anyone who breeds should know the color genes and what is dominant/recessive and what can occur in a litter - Jeff. Two bicolors could not produce sable no matter if there is sable in the lines. Sable is always dominant. If a dog carries sable, it is a sable dog. Simple as that. If there is no sable parent, there are no sable puppies possible. If there are sable puppies from two non-sable parents, check the sneaky neighbor dog or find the closest sneaky sable dog in the kennel, that will be the sire of at least that puppy. Two bicolors will produce bicolors. If they are truly bicolors. If they are actually black/tans, or one of them is a black/tan and not bicolor - then there could be black/tans and bicolors. If BOTH parents carry black recessive genes, then there would be black puppies as well. No sables possible.|
by darylehret on 31 March 2011 - 03:10
Miss knowitall, you probably had no clue yourself when you had your first litter with this particular breed.
by Jenni78 on 31 March 2011 - 03:18
|So...............................like I said, bi and black.|
by vonissk on 31 March 2011 - 03:25
|Well I sort of hate to get into this particular pissing match but I just went and looked at Dolf and I say it is impossible for his parents to produce a sable. It takes a sable to make a sable. You can tell me different all you want but you'd have to show me DNA on any dog and then I still would wonder. And by the way I have known it for a long time............................|
by Jeff Oehlsen on 31 March 2011 - 03:26
|Quote: anyone who breeds should know the color genes and what is dominant/recessive and what can occur in a litter - Jeff.|
In all the posts that you have ever read from me, what gives you the impression that I give a shit about the color of a dog ? At any rate, in a few years it won't matter anymore, you will be producing your doorknob/nervebag show line.
Ever clean up all that chickenshit ? Or are the dogs just subject to eating shit. If you are using that to cut the cost of dogfood, to pay for the guys that are actually training your dogs, I have some I can send you. Got a bunch of copper morans. They are a french line as well, and can kick the shit out of your chickens as well. I didn't send the x-rays I took of them to OFA either.
by darylehret on 31 March 2011 - 03:56
|vonissk, I can't explain in simpler terms how it could possibly occur. Evolution is wonderous. I have long wondered if the rate of mutation perhaps increases when inbreeding takes place, as if it were Nature's way of attempting to counterbalance lack of variation. Like how even the most mundane environments can reveal the most surprising novelties. Perhaps Dolf would fit that model as well, given his high inbreeding coefficient.|
by demeras on 31 March 2011 - 05:35
|I bred two bi-colors together. They had sable in their back ground. I got seven puppies. 5 Bi-colors.......2 black with tan between their toes and under their tails...that was it as far as tan went. No sable. Did that breeding Twice. Second litter 5 puppies. 4 bi-colors and One black. They were nice puppies. So that is what I got when breeding two REAL bi-colors together. I currently have a very nice dark Bi-color Bitch. And while color isn't what makes the dog...it sure is nice to have it on a beautiful dog. I love Bi-colors.|
by darylehret on 31 March 2011 - 11:49
|You shouldn't expect any significant possibility of sable. The occurance of noticeable mutations is rather infrequent first of all, and even less so for reverse mutations. I'm merely attemting to stretch the imaginations of the impossible thinkers. It is believed that the frequency of foreward mutations is at least 10 times greater than that of reverse mutations. Here's an estimate somewhat comparable to this topic...|
by BlackthornGSD on 31 March 2011 - 19:44
|Was Dolf DNA tested for parentage? Although a mutation is possible, an alternative sire (or even a "chimera" parent!) would seem more likely.|
by B.Andersen on 01 April 2011 - 15:51
|Absolutely tight line breeding causes mutation. In AQHA horses the terrible HYPP defect came from one horse Impressive who was tightly bred on the TB sire Three Bars Whether Dolf is a mutation or not is a question but DNA could prove it.|
by mirasmom on 01 April 2011 - 20:51
Would you say Dolf was a product of "tight linebreeding", or "inbreeding"?
by darylehret on 02 April 2011 - 01:03
|Inbreeding or tight line breeding might allow the expression of mutations to present themselves in their homogenous forms, being that most are recessive (or less dominant) and require two alleles for the phenotype to occur, but how do you arrive at the notion that there is any definite proof that inbreeding is actually the cause of any mutational rate increase? The HYPP condition didn't reveal itself until there were linebred specimens of the horse named Impressive. But, there were plenty sufficient carriers of HYPP that were not particularly linebred beforehand.|
Examples of "spontaneous" mutations, that occur on the dna level (rather than "induced" mutations, caused by environment) are as follows...
Dolf could even be an example of another possibility, a supressor mutation, rather than a reverse mutation.