Quote: Seems like Ringsport requires a much tougher dog. Seeing Labs,Goldens, and other breeds regularly getting titled in Schuzhund, to me, isnt saying much for the sport.

I didn't want to respond on the other thread, as I think it needs to just have breeders dogs and pups on it. 

I do Mondio. I find it to be a very challenging sport, and one mistake can cost you the whole exercise. It is a lot of fun to do, despite Buko's insistence in failing object guards because he was hit in the face, or the defense of handler because he figured that is just long enough. LOL This year at Nationals, he bit early, and actually gave it thought, and came off real fast, and then proceeded to stare at the distraction decoy, then looked at me after the hit. 0. : )

Sch is not even close difficulty-wise. You stay in Mondio long enough, and while Sch has it's difficulties, it is a goof in comparison.

I really would like to see the GSD in ringsports. That is my goal for my breeding. I am not going to make it there in one litter, and I am not going to follow Sch stupid rules for breeding. There are things that would melt way too many GSD's in ring as I see it right now. I can come on here and say this, and of course I will be told how foolish I am, but no one takes me up on the challenge to see if they can get a ring three on their GSD.

As I see it, and until someone steps up and shows me that their breedings can go and do ringsports, which many of them claim that their breedings can do, I will keep doing what I am doing. 

Mondio really is a hell of a lot of fun to trial. Hopefully in a few years people will buy my pups so that they can compete with a GSD in ring.

I can see this turning into an interesting thread!

Thanks for clearing that up. The reason I brought it up was because others were trying to compare thier dogs to yours, when they do Schutzhund and you do Mondio...

Non comparable if you ask me...other than the fact Mondio is a much tougher sport.

I respect your goals as a breeder...

I believe you will succeed!

What traits to you see that keep most sport-bred GSDs from attaining a Mondio title, Jeff? I have my own ideas about what SchH only breeding criteria is causing, but I want to hear what you'd like to see more of and less of in a GSD line that would excel at Mondio. 

Hey Jeff:  I'd like to see a lot more GSDs being bred with an eye towards ring sports.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I think overall they will need to be bred with a lot more easily accessed high prey drive, and  they need to be built better (more upright, shorter backed, no great big heavy clunkers).   I think this would be a better dog for schutzhund too and everything else for that matter,  including military and police work.  After all, these are some of the important  traits (better health, more agile, higher prey drive)  that have made the Malinois a superior dog, in both sport and real world applications, no?

Malinois are cheap, too. That's quite a bit of why there are more of them in those applications. A GSD that can do all that is worth a lot more than a Mal w/the same attributes.

Sue, what do mean "more easily accessed" when you talk about prey drive? 

So are we all agreeing that structure is important and isn't all about looks? 

Hey you guys, why do they call it Ring Sport?

I mean a dog with what i believe Jeff calls  lower thresholds. Prey drive promotion should  be easy and right "there".   Combined with high prey drive, combined with a clear head.   I think probably Malinois are less expensive because their value hasn't been inflated by  popularity and the show ring enthusiast, and it's easier to find a good Malinois than it is a good GSD.   I would agree  that it should be about structure, for me, pretty is as pretty does.  Incidently I'm not saying they aren't out there, there's are a  few GSDs in the little training group I train with,  that I am pretty sure would impress even you, and your ring buddies, Jeff !!  

Ok, thanks, Sue. 

You can stick with Sch Don, no one is asking you to change. The best way to see what I am talking about is to start a club and do the sport. If you have a different opinion in the end, so be it. 

From a basic point of view, you go out and track not even a half a mile, then you take the dog back to the car. You go and do 5 or 10 minutes of OB, then back to the car, then you go out for another 8 minutes and you are done. You have 3 bites total, and the pattern never changes. 

It is all well and good to ask me about my scores, and no, not all were V scores, but it doesn't take away from the fact that you go out and train a dog to Mondio or French ring three and Sch is not really all that.

Just as a mindset, if my dog does phenominal in the bitework, but ok in the OB, people say, too bad Jeff. If he does well in the OB, then they say he did a good job. Peoples perception is all fuckled up when OB is the major criteria by which they judge a dogs performance.

Jeff can you please speak to where you are headed with your breeding program?  Are there specific traits you want to improve on or add via your program?  I realize we are not talking about litters being born today, so much as down the line.  I am seriously  interested to hear your long term goals.  I know that you have started with  a couple of  french GSDs and was wondering what you are seeing in them, that made you want to bring them to the table? 

And so now we know why you had a hard time with SchH. You couldn't handle the OB. You couldn't handle it, that is training a dog to succeed in the obedience portion and/or you had a dog lacking qualities to excel in the rigorous training required to succeed in OB.  I call bullshit when I hear some shit like the ones that runs deep out of Jeff's mouth.  You describe a trial and you measure the sport based on that.  You can describe a schutzhund trial all you want, but the challenege for the handler/dog team is the amount of rigorous training it takes from beginning to end (well there's really no end is there?) to excel in SchH3.  Notice I'm not fukin talking nor describing what takes place in ONE trial. Show me a shitter that can take the amount of training from beginning to end, in order to EXCEL in SchH3.  Well? Thought so.

WTF is ringsport? Where the hell is the tracking? Where the hell is the OB. Ringsport... leaves much to be desired in the training of a worthy dog.

and you now you want to breed. wow, now that is despicable. maybe learn to work a dog, before trying to find the good working dog from your lousy attempt at breeding.

Michael Ellis took 2nd at the mondio nationals. Something the likes of Jeff won't ever see in his lifetime.  Google Ellis on Schutzhund, and you'll hear him say something along the lines of "standards are set from schutzhund... innovation emerges from the schutzhund community... etc."  Jeff you should be on your knees sucking Ellis, since he's the mondio God.

Oh for crap sake, can we move this discussion away from the never ending  fight over which sport is better and talk about the breed and what can be done to improve it?????  I don't give a SHIT who likes which sport better,  I do schutzhund, Jeff does Mondio SO  WHAT???????   Jeff is going to always have shitty things to say about schutzhund, just forget about it, he's entitled to his opinion whether we agree with it or not.  THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE.

I want to hear Jeff's plans and  I don't want this to turn into yet another stupid my cock's bigger than your cock's thread because my sports better than your sport.  That's just a stupid argument with no damn end.

Devnull please understand I know exactly where you are coming from, have felt the same frustrations, especially  with those who knock schutzhund,  who haven't done anything in any grip sport, don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and are only parroting things they read on a message board, but you know what?  THEY REALLY DON'T MATTER, THEY NEVER WILL!!!!!!  And if they aren't involved, then there is no point arguing with them about it.  Just nod politely and walk away, to do otherwise is a waste of energy because they just don't get it.

Now can we please just discuss breeding program and goals?

SO THERE.

Don I actually wasn't refering to you because not only didn't you make your point in a rude or argumentative manner, I cracked up at your remarks about ring tracking........besides I have always had a big crush on you......... BUT HEY  NOW - Did you just call me OLD ?????!!!!!!

So I am getting ripped apart ? I guess I should be emotional then. ...... Nope, don't feel it.  My mind doesn't feel anything either. 

I never had a hard time with Sch. Never said that, but you were quick to assume that, making an ass out of you, and umption. 

I don't know what Mike said about Sch or innovation. We usually talk about other things, like life, the dogs, you know normal stuff. We don't talk about Sch, or how gay it is, or how overcompensating most of the silly shits that write stuff like you just did are. 

I live in Texas, if you are ever around, you can come and help me with my OB and tell me all about how tough it is for a dog to do it.  You can bring your dog and relax and then you can tell me all about how easy Buko is to train, and make fun all you want. You can watch him train and then tell me all about what I am doing wrong. I don't mind. However, if you ever grow a pair and decide to try Mondio, then maybe you can tell me all about how tough it is to train Sch. 

As far as breeding goals, I know what I want, and maybe, maybe I know how to get there. Considering it is my first litter on the way there, maybe you need to get back to me in a few years. Hell, maybe it won't work, maybe I will never get a dog placed in a home that does ring. That is all for later. Right now I want to see lower thresholds and good character. 

Quote: and you now you want to breed. wow, now that is despicable. maybe learn to work a dog, before trying to find the good working dog from your lousy attempt at breeding.

I guess we will see how lousy it is. Pretty funny considering they are 11 weeks old. Sure, they could turn out to be shit, always a possibility, but I am pretty sure that you are clueless about what is or isn't  a lousy attempt. I am betting that all this butt hurt comes from having a dog that isn't a banger like mine is.