German Shepherd Dog > First litter born since feeding totally raw food (58 replies)
by realmccoy on 28 March 2011 - 15:11
Fact or Fiction?
Some say that if you feed raw, you most likely will not have to assist mom with delivering the litter. (except for the fact that you check to see if she doesn't accidently sit on the pups and crush them)
Has anyone ever fed kibble for one litter, than fed raw for another litter to prove this?
by eichenluft on 28 March 2011 - 15:18
Fiction. Good balanced diet is a good balanced diet. If someone chooses to feed raw, and is educated enough to be sure the diet is balanced, the dogs will do fine on it. If someone feeds a good quality kibble, the dogs will do fine on it. Simple as that - it's a matter of choice. I choose to feed kibble, and I challenge anyone to prove that their raw-fed dogs are healthier, have less vet bills, easier whelping, faster recovery, better hair coat, less allergies, more vigorous, bigger, or stronger puppies, or live longer than my kibble-fed dogs are. I don't have to try feeding raw to figure that out - there is no way my dogs would be in better coat or condition than they are on kibble (they are in perfect coat and condition). No reason to fix what isn't broken.
by Nans gsd on 28 March 2011 - 15:24
Hi Cheryl: Since you have been feeding raw for a while can you give us a scenario of what you feed and variety; Thx Nan
by wlpool on 28 March 2011 - 18:19
PUPPIEEEEEEESSSS, puppies puppies puppies! THEY ARE SOOOOO CUTE!!!!
by FlashBang on 29 March 2011 - 17:54
Invest in some snake chaps for those little landsharks ;) Cute puppies, and I like how #10 seems to be saying, "YAY!" in the picture :)
by GSDtravels on 29 March 2011 - 20:36
Congrats on a beatiful, healthy litter! The excitement in your "voice" says it all :) Can't wait to watch them grow.
by Jenni78 on 29 March 2011 - 21:51
I fed kibble (partly kibble anyway) for the litter I bred while I was pregnant. I was really sick and it was easier. Puppies were fine, mom was fine, but HOLY COW, what a difference in the next litters, the raw fed ones. She hardly shed, pups were an average of 3-4lbs heavier at same age, and they just were "better" in a way that's hard to articulate. Ears were up early and stayed up, and as lean as they were (I keep puppies skinny), when you picked them up they were like tanks. I hate fat, lazy puppies. You were shocked when you put them on the scale because they didn't look that heavy. I can only attribute it to greater muscle tone early on, as bone was about the same as other litters. They grow very uniformly and never seemed to go through those awkward stages of uneven growth.
by mirasmom on 30 March 2011 - 21:49
|They are turning into real puppies!!!|
Finally went out & got some yarn!
My Labrador Retriever also had pups,(fed raw diet).. she had them yesterday on my daughters B-day,
My daughter just turned 20 yrs. old, she trained Claire so I could title her for CD & RN.
We consider Claire to be my daughter's dog.
I was going to retire Claire, but then her beautiful daughter Daisey that was 3yrs old, got out of the yard & got hit by a car in January, it was just within minutes.
So I asked Daisey's mom Claire if she wouldn't mind one more litter with Daisey's dad, she said "OK, Maybe just one more" and what do you know, 4 boys & 4 girls, mom & pups are super healthy, and I have a part of Daisey back in our lives, what an exciting day that was!
by Jenni78 on 30 March 2011 - 21:54
|Wow, a 20 yr old Labrador.|
by ronin on 30 March 2011 - 22:11
Can't believe how narrow minded some people are; I feed half kibble/half raw because I work 13hr shifts and my wife has to look after the dogs, everything in science from childrens health to athletes, to aging is all related to diet. Kibble is not as good as raw, and I feed Orijen. Its pure luck that Molly hasn't had any problems, its not even logical let alone objective.
I bought my first raw fed pup 18months ago, and the difference was amazing. You are what you eat, and if your daft enough to believe whats on the side of the bag then you're hardly likely to open your eyes to the facts. Kibble is convenient, its clean and its cheap, and quick. Processed food for people or dogs has never been anything else. Perhaps they should feed the lions in the zoo kibble! The cr*p in the human food chain is very scary, what the hell must go into pet food. Then again that dogs cancer rates are thousands of times higher than peoples must be just bad luck.
by mirasmom on 30 March 2011 - 22:58
|Thanks Jenni, I just got rid of the 20 yr. old dog, I knew I didn't word that correctly,|
but as long as I can spell shepherd right, that's all I care about....that's one that gets to me
Those smiley faces all look so evil, what's up with that
Thank you for mentioning that, "You are what you eat" that's so true....
A human can smoke, drink, eat fast food, take drugs, all they want maybe cause they choose to,
the dog doesn't have that choice, they trust us..
Remember the dog that was in the news, he was euthanized only to come back to life the next day cause he had a high tolerance of all the drugs used in the dead animal carcases they put in our pet food....
by Siantha on 30 March 2011 - 23:06
|i feed a raw kibble mix and my girly had 10 pups that where 1 to 2 lbs at birth and now at 6 weeks are 13 15 lbs from smallest to biggest boy. and they arnt fat very healthy. mom never got thin or drained as i have seen. puppies where born with shiny dark little coats and its staying that way im scared to see how big my pups will be if i go all raw o.o my first litter was on kibble the pups where all below a lb and at 8 weeks where 10 lbs haha|
by eichenluft on 31 March 2011 - 02:41
|LOL Ronin -pure luck doesn't match the statistics. I've been breeding since 1995. 16 years - and let's see total about 60 litters. ALL on kibble - both mothers and puppies. NONE on raw. ALL have been 100% perfect in health, coat, condition, recovery, puppy weight, puppy growth, ease of natural whelping, etc. Working dogs achieving multiple Schh3 titles and retiring at 9 years old from National-level competitions. Dogs living without health problems, allergies, coat and skin problems, sound and healthy until their teenage years. |
Not to mention I have MANY very elderly dogs boarding here (several 16-18 years old) who have been on "crap" kibble - ie Beneful, Old Roy, Science Diet, Dads, Kibbles and Bits, soft packaged "burger" food.... for their entire lives.
As I said, I challenge anyone who feeds raw to compare their dogs to mine in longevity, coat/skin condition, energy level, weight and condition, whelping naturally and recovery, vet bills, etc. Mine will probably win that challenge.
Nothing to do with luck. You choose to feed raw and that's fine. I choose to feed Kibble and my dogs are absolutely thriving on it and always have, including my pregnant and nursing mother dogs. In fact I would never consider feeding raw unless I have a dog with a specific food allergy, which I don't have so no need to think about it.
by Jenni78 on 31 March 2011 - 03:34
|100% perfect, eh? 60 litters of 100% perfect puppies in every way? WOW! |
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I guess health is, too. I have seen lots of dogs whose owners thought they looked great and I thought they looked like absolute shit. What looks great or good enough to one looks like the bare minimum to others and vice versa. People often don't notice what's lacking UNTIL they see what "could" be. Not saying Molly's dogs don't look ok, but I would put my pups up against any kibble-fed pups any day. Do what you want, but don't make totally outlandish claims like "100% perfect" since 1995???? Just sounds ridiculous.
Additionally, I have seen huge differences in the pups whose owners continued to feed raw as opposed to the owners who fed kibble exclusively. Ears, growth rates and awkward phases, etc.....totally different in my experience.
I just had a board/train dog go home today. We were talking and Caleb's age came up. The owner thought she misunderstood me because she couldn't believe he was that old. Her dog looks twice his age, and in fact, he is twice her dog's age. She naturally asked why he looks like that- free of a single gray hair, gorgeous coat, excellent muscle, lean physique, and a "something" extra that you can't quite articulate. Guess what? She's switching her dog's food now after looking at all my dogs compared to her much younger dog. Is her dog "ok"? Yeah. But is he thriving? Not in my opinion.
I don't think it's as simple as longevity; it's QUALITY of life. Maybe they only get an extra few months, but if they have one less ailment, isn't that enough reason? I think it's especially despicable when people who make a living off their dogs don't see to it that they receive the absolute best of everything.
by eichenluft on 31 March 2011 - 03:57
|My dogs are in PERFECT coat, condition, health and they prove it over and over again by the litters they whelp and sire, and the work they do. I work ALL of my dogs, and even the older ones lead a very active lifestyle. Kibble food.|
and as I said - you can't get too much older than 16-18 years old. MANY dogs, boarding here, that age, no health problems (other than age-related), on Kibbles and Bits. Dogs with the most gorgeous coats possible to have come in here, and I ask what they are feeding them - Science Diet or Old Roy. My own dogs have lived to 14-16 years old fed Dog Chow (before I became better educated in dog food choices) I have a chocolate lab 15 years old, a 16 year old Weimeraner, 18 year old dachshund, 18 year old chow mix, 14 year old yellow lab (several of those) - and so on - ALL on basic grocery-store bought dog food kibble. NONE on raw. ALL doing very well despite their ages. Still plugging along with few health problems requiring a vet other than normal age-related supplements.
I have never in 16 years had a problem with a litter of puppies, mother dog recovering or whelping naturally/recovering, or coat/condition due to feeding kibble food. My females don't "blow their coat" during nursing, they maintain their beautiful coats even through their normal coat-blows. Puppies are never nutritionally defecient or lacking in size, weight or health due to diet. Better?
Yes I would put my kibble-fed dogs up against a raw-fed dog anytime. You wouldn't be able to tell which ones were fed raw or kibble. As long as the raw diet-dogs are on a balanced raw diet that is.
Because I have seen MANY nutritionally defecient puppies and adults fed raw - people not educated enough to be sure the raw diet was balanced - feeding puppies raw when they are too young to properly chew/digest it - dogs with terrible coat/skin condition - especially on a pre-made raw food made on this side of the country - I could pick out a ____ raw fed dog from 100 yards away judging on their coat condition and obvious "itchies".
Kibble it is, for me - you guys can have the raw, if I have not seen the benefit of it for myself in so many years of working, breeding, raising my own puppies and being involved in dog sport then I'm very sure I'm not going to see the benefit now.
by VomMarischal on 31 March 2011 - 05:31
16 years - and let's see total about 60 litters."|
I knew you were doing some serious damage, but JEEZE. And you're bragging about puppymilling? I can rescue til I'm blue in the face and never put a DENT in that. How many grandprogeny do you have? Wow.
Hey how many individuals in the 60 litters are titled? I mean, that has to total roughly 300 puppies. How many of them titled? I'd really like to know, seriously. I mean, I have two whole litters, and the litter of five, who are adults now--well, one is titled and two others will be trialing soon. So assuming they pass, my average is 60%; if they don't, I'm still looking at 20%. How many of your progeny are titled?
" My dogs are in PERFECT coat, condition, health and they prove it over and over again by the litters they whelp and sire, and the work they do. I work ALL of my dogs, and even the older ones lead a very active lifestyle. Kibble food."
WOW. You must be RICH to afford all that help. Either that or skinny as a stick from walking what? ten dogs a mile a day each? That's not even all that active. You say VERY active. And I've never heard of one other living soul who could produce 60 litters of PERFECT dogs. Jeeze. You need to write books so we can all do as well.
Oh but that is why you are the Breed Warden. UScA loves a puppymiller. Not a puppy miller? WTH do you call someone who has 60 litters if not a puppy miller? (Of course, that only counts the GSDs.)
"MANY dogs, boarding here, that age, no health problems (other than age-related), on Kibbles and Bits. Dogs with the most gorgeous coats possible to have come in here, and I ask what they are feeding them - Science Diet or Old Roy. My own dogs have lived to 14-16 years old fed Dog Chow (before I became better educated in dog food choices)"
So...they get fabulous coats and extreme ages on Kibbles and Bits or Dog Chow but for some reason that isn't good enough for you? You have to get better educated on dog food? Why? With all those dogs doing so well on garbage? Hell, I think you found the fountain of Dog Youth. Don't mess up all those perfect dogs now.
"I have never in 16 years had a problem with a litter of puppies, mother dog recovering or whelping naturally/recovering, or coat/condition due to feeding kibble food."
And how would you know exactly why your dams did have problems? Do they have like tickertape readouts? This problem is caused by X and the other problem by Y? God knows that's more scientific than, say, extensive research over long periods of time. Your dogs SAID that any problems they had were not kibble related, right?
" Because I have seen MANY nutritionally defecient puppies and adults fed raw - people not educated enough to be sure the raw diet was balanced - feeding puppies raw when they are too young to properly chew/digest it - dogs with terrible coat/skin condition - especially on a pre-made raw food made on this side of the country - I could pick out a ____ raw fed dog from 100 yards away judging on their coat condition and obvious "itchies". "
Oh right. You have seen all your puppies grown up and contrasted them with equal numbers of grown puppies who were fed raw. Right? I mean, in order to properly compare, you are going to have to contrast your 300 puppies with 300 fed raw. You did that, right? In order to come up with your scientific findings?
by Jyl on 31 March 2011 - 05:46
|I am not taking sides on this.... just wanted to comment on the 60 litters in 16 years... that is 3.75 litters a year. Thats really not that many litters per year.|
NOW BACK TO THE TOPIC....
Mirasmom.. Congrats on the 2 litters. Your pups look great. Nice and healthy. Thanks for posting the pictures.
by VomMarischal on 31 March 2011 - 05:49
|Exactly my point! Although.....if that's your actual JOB, it's isn't too much. Of course, my job seems to be finding fantastic dogs like the one below that are dumped in pounds. |
by VomMarischal on 31 March 2011 - 05:53
|Of course, Jyl, point taken. Off topic. But only responding to a previous post, and after all I AM talking about raw feeding.|
Mirasmom, how do you get the yarn to stay on? My bitch chewed them off no matter what I did.
by kaigranny on 31 March 2011 - 12:39
|They are so cute - glad they are all healthy and thriving - I don't know how you can do it with 2 sets of pups at the same time AGGGHHH !! :) Vom Marischal (and others on this board) helped me with Kai many months ago re: raw and he has grown to be a healthy, handsome, pup (11 mos) :)|