German Shepherd Dog > THE BRITISH GSDL/WUSV SYSTEM "IN PERSPECTIVE" (62 replies)
by Videx on 24 February 2011 - 02:55
|The interest in the GSD Breed Survey is not minimal now, and it has been growing since the first British Sieger. It was "saved" by the British Sieger, NOT by anything else. The Breed Surveyors should fully support my views of our Breed Survey and resist all temptations to simply revel in their own perceived status. The Breed Surveyors should be leaders in ensuring our Breed Survey has every realistic opportunity to grow in popularity, recognising the absolute need to resist any and every impediment to such growth, large or small. The GSD Breed Survey needs to be linked to the Entry Requirements of a major GSD Event, eg The British Sieger, and now the addition of the GSDL/WUSV Regional Events.|
It would continue to grow WITH the growth in the number and status of the Regional Events. The status of the Regional Events NEEDS to be enhanced further in order to maintain the growth in numbers participating in the GSD Breed Survey. One very important way of achieving this higher status is to introduce opportunity to gain the title of British Champion at GSDL/WUSV Regional Events.
Maybe one day soon the Regional Group will realise that all of these important developments rely on integration. To leave out the British Champion Title is a nonsense, in a similar way as the introduction of the KC Good Citizens Test into the breed survey. When you have an excellent product it is ridiculous to ignore making additional genuine enhancements and even more ridiculous to introduce additional hurdles of a completely unnecessary nature which impede in any way obvious and achievable progress.
We need a 10 to 20 year plan for the realistic and sustainable progress of our GSD breed here within the UK. I baulk at the possibility that this can be achieved with any involvement whatsoever of the GSD Breed Council.
by bazza on 24 February 2011 - 06:54
|David (Videx) genuine question..... What does it feel like to bang your head against a brick wall on a daily basis???|
by Shonnag on 24 February 2011 - 10:35
|I have been following this topic and although not banging my head against a wall I am sure scratching it!! no one has answered the question as to when the need for a GDCS bronze became a requirement so I have undertaken some searches on the net in a hope to learn more. Am I better informed, no I'm more confused. |
My dogs have their bronze certificates ( 1 has gold) because I enjoy training and the certificates only have pet names on them. Note the paperwork for Tattoo/Microchip number required to do the test at Bolton http://www.lararth.co.uk/Documents/bolton%20open%202011.pdf This implies that the GCDS requirements have been tweaked for GSDs as there is no paperwork referenced by the KC at http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/408 to take the bronze test. Which IMHO is way below that required to achieve the BH, referred to in this topic as a UK BH.
Could someone please confirm what paperwork is required for the (new) breed survey and a link to a document that contains this information.
by Abby Normal on 24 February 2011 - 10:42
|I question this statement:|
"working tests" which are in no way connected to the SV/WUSV System.
They are a requirement of the SV breed survey, so how can it be that 'they are in no way connected with the SV/WUSV system' ?
You refer to 'completely unnecessary hurdles' when referring to any kind of working test.
You may be right that it may be 'too much, too soon' to introduce them now in the UK, but it should not be 'lost' that working ability is an essential requirement of a correct GSD. I foresee a real possibility that it will never materialise in the breed survey in the future, which would be a a real shame. It would be good to see a 5 - 10 year plan formulated, with set goals and objectives.
IMO the opportunity to achieve the title of British Sieger should only be open to dogs which have achieved the necessary minimum title of Sch1 or IPO1, and have demonstrated the required qualities in addition to health and conformation. Perhaps that would provide some incentive to embrace the whole package.
I think it is a huge and positive step that breed surveys are being carried out, but if the bar is set too low, that could become fixed for the future. It is a difficult balance to achieve.
Bazza - do you have an actual opinion on this issue?
I am surprised at the lack of input to this thread.
by Nellie on 24 February 2011 - 11:07
|IMO for a dog to participate in any breed survey, not only should it have all health checks , it should have a working test, or would we not still be breeding from animals that qualify for conformation only and not ensuring the working ability of the animal which IS a big issue with dogs being bred in the UK, 2000 dogs surveyed will add a lot of puppies only known to qualify for conformation, GSDL already has the working group so try using it , |
by Sue B on 24 February 2011 - 11:21
|Shonna, I Personally THANK YOU for stating the most obvious, of so many reasons, why it was such a ridiculous idea to introduce the KC Bronze Award into our GSD Breed Survey. If for no other reason, the fact that NO PROOF OF IDENTITY at all is required to pass any KC Award. You simply enter your dog for the award, no proof of ID is required, no-one checks for a Microchip, Tattoo, indeed it isn't even necessary to give any other detail except your dogs PET NAME!!! So actually the points that some made re , "Surely it isn't to much to ask for a simple obedience test to pass a Survey", is simply irrelevant and those who fear taking the test is also simply irrelevant, all anyone has to do is train ONE DOG AND ONE DOG ONLY and then they can use that dog over and over again as many times as they like, with as many different names as they like, who would know!!!!! Oh yes, I suppose it would be an idea to train a Bitch too for the same purpose.|
Therefore, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON, no KCGC Award should be accepted as Proof of ANY dogs training capabilities.
Forget about the KC system that neither requires Health tests or Identification for participation in any of their Activities.
Other than that, the ONLY other way is for the British Surveyors to continue to do the simple, already accepted Character / Temperament tests that they have always done BUT WITH ONE EXCEPTION, that they should standardise the test to ENSURE THE SAME test conditions are used by ALL SURVEYORS and that every participant knows exactly what his/her dog needs to be capable of before entering. Thats ensures fairness and equality across the board.
THE ONLY WAY FORWARD is to ONLY ACCEPT tests which require IDENTIFYABLE PROOF that this particular dog was the dog which underwent the test which is ANY test held under the WUSV system.
Personally I think the character / temp test should be done on the day by a different Surveyor, this would eliminate the whispers that some people go under the same surveyors all the time because they know they will turn a blind eye to their nervous / timid or Gun Shy dogs, having two surveyors involved would help eliminate those rumours, but then thats just my opinion.
The Kennel Club Brigade element of our Breed Council will be the ruination of our breed in the UK by continuing to keep it permanently locked into the KC Dark Ages.
by bazza on 24 February 2011 - 11:33
|ABBY, I wholeheartedly AGREE with Videx and Sue b, would you like me to retype what they have said for your benefit? Now you have my opinion...okay for you?|
by missbeeb on 24 February 2011 - 11:39
Abby, the title of British Sieger can only be achieved by those with SchH 1 or more.
Only those daft enough (yeah... me) post on here now because of the abuse and nitpicking by unknown peeps.
by Sue B on 24 February 2011 - 11:52
The Way Forward to a Healthy Future for the GSD in the UK
by Videx on 24 February 2011 - 13:08
| missbeeb: In answer to your question, second post on this page. It gives me a headache!|
An excellent logo (above) for the "WUSV British Regional Group"
by Abby Normal on 24 February 2011 - 13:34
I agree with the previous posts from Videx and SueB too. I said earlier on that the KCGC should be replaced with an alternative, devised by the group, since it is a mismatch with the WUSV/GSDL ethos. Also, not least because it is such a basic level test as to be worthless, and is IMO a prime example of setting the bar too low.
No need to for you to repeat someone else's opinions/posts, I wondered if you might have some of your own.
One of my questions was about the breed survey including/not including a working test. What do you think? Should breedworthiness include working ability?
by Videx on 24 February 2011 - 13:45
|my answer: EVENTUALLY!|
In the meantime we must recognise the current huge benefits of the GSD Breed Survey relating to IDENTIFICATION - HEALTH SCREENING TESTS - CONFORMATION.
and we must do all in our power to maximise the number of GSD going through the Breed Survey until such time as it becomes normal practice, especially for all GSD intended for breeding.
Eventually making the GSD Breed Survey a "requirement" for all "Litter Registrations".
by bazza on 24 February 2011 - 13:53
|my answer..same as Videx EVENTUALLY. Oh! sorry, in my own words?? |
by Abby Normal on 24 February 2011 - 14:22
I do recognise the huge step forward, and the particularly the benefits of health testing. You can perhaps acknowledge that it is all too easy to get settled into a survey (or anything else for that matter) that does not include certain elements, and that the current level becomes and remains the norm, and it can be difficult to change/introduce. I would think you could certainly recognise that pitfall.
Currently it is not a stated objective of the regional group. I believe it should be, albeit 2 , 10 or 20 years in the future, if we are truly intending to determine breed worth not based on health and conformation alone.
by Sue B on 24 February 2011 - 14:55
|Abby, You are wrong the British Breed Survey is stated in the Objectives as the|
minimum requirement for entry into the BRG for animals of 2yrs and over.,
See Aims and Objectives below (imparticular highlighted objective), that form
part of the WUSV-BRG Rules and Regulations.
WUSV BRITISH REGIONAL GROUP RULES & REGULATIONS - Aims and Objectives
• To promote the health and welfare of the German Shepherd Dog
• To provide a medium for members to exchange views and information
• To organise and arrange events for the GSD based on WUSV rules
• To provide an educational base for sharing information on:-
o WUSV rules and regulations
o Mandatory Health Issues
o Working qualifications
• To promote the GSD as per the WUSV standard
• To assist members in obtaining qualifications based on the WUSV system
o Schutzhund 1, 2 & 3
o Koerung (Lebenzeit/life)
• To work alongside the GSD League of Great Britain as an affiliated organization.
To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which
is capable of achieving the minimum required to obtain a British Breed Survey pass.
A calendar of Regional Events to be posted on the GSDL website, where we aim to achieve giving
at least one year’s notice regarding forthcoming events.
To encourage exhibitors to take part there will be a Regional Group League Table, where the following
points will be counted to produce a ‘Top Awards’ table for that year.
Puppy to Adult Classes 3 pts for 1st
2 pts for 2nd
1 pt for 3rd
Working Class 5 pts for V1
4 pts for V2
3 pts for V3
Working Class (British Sieger Show only) 7 pts for VA1
6 pts for all subsequent VA’s
(then as per working class above)
by singer on 24 February 2011 - 23:11
|Breed Survey is a voluntary scheme so why put your dog through if you don’t need to, you have to give people an incentive to use the scheme, which should be at shows only dogs with a Breed Survey will be able to be graded excellent and regardless of conformation will be positioned ahead of unsurveyed dogs |
When people have something to gain from having their dogs surveyed then they will have them done in numbers
Identification is the cornerstone of Breed Survey
by Videx on 25 February 2011 - 11:12
|I have absolutely no doubt that the future for our GSD here in the UK will be best served by the GSDL/WUSV Regional Group. I sincerely hope the vast majority of GSD owners will join the GSD League of Great Britain and fully support in every way possible the GSDL/WUSV Regional Events and our British Sieger.|
I hope the genuinely exciting opportunities which the GSDL/WUSV Regional Group have to offer are recognised and fully exploited by our breed. These opportunities can only be fully developed and realised with the overwhelming support of those involved in our breed. We should all realise that our breed will only thrive and prosper with dynamic and progressive leadership, The GSDL/WUSV offer that leadership, and they have the fullest support from the SV and WUSV in their endeavors. The value and importance of this support should not be underestimated.
by Abby Normal on 25 February 2011 - 11:33
No, I think you misunderstand me. The objective of all dogs ultimately having to pass a working test as part of the breed survey, as we have been discussing here. BTW, it is not a criticism but an observation.
When I re-checked it yesterday, the section you have highlighted actually said:
To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which is capable of achieving a minimum qualification of BH.
In any case, even with the changes, 'capable of achieving a minimum breed survey pass', means obtaining a pass in the survey as it stands now, which doesn't currently contain any working test.
My observation is that it doesn't state any future objective concerning the introduction of a working test as part of the breed survey in the future.
by Sue B on 25 February 2011 - 13:34
I think we appear to be at cross purposes here and therefore have a completely different perspective when looking at things.
Where I SAY :- "To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which is capable of achieving the minimum required to obtain a British Breed Survey pass."
With the FOCUS on a 'Minimum' requirement of a British Breed Survey pass.
You SAY;- " The objective of all dogs ultimately having to pass a working test as part of the breed survey, " The focus being the ULTIMATE.
Upon reading the list of Aims and Objectives above, it should become evident that the AIMS outline the BRG's ULTIMATE objective but we are afterall BRITISH and not everyone wants to train their dog in the Protection Phase (Bite work) and I for one absolutely support those who dont and their rights not to have to have their dogs trained in Sch in order to compete at WUSV type events in this country.
As for the Breed Survey, unfortunately as it stands at the moment it is in the hands of the Breed Council,
my personal view that it would now be best served back in the hands of the GSD League as it used to be years ago before the Breed Council ever existed is just my opinion and therefore totally irrelevent at this time. However, the fact that current Breed Surveys are controlled by the Breed Council is somewhat of an ironic stumbling block when one considers the fact that the BC is a KC recognised body but as such the KC do not recognise the BC Survey, whilst the WUSV-BRGroup neither a KC or BC recognised body totally emcompasses the Breed Survey as part of its Objectives towards Breed Health and demands it be the MINIMUM requirement for entry at their events.
The further irony of this is that the BC Officers do all in their power to belittle the WUSV-BRG movement, along with its member Clubs/Groups!! So much for the GSD Breed Council in this country and their views on Breed Health and Welfare and the promotion of Healthy Shepherds at Dog Show events. One cannot help but shake ones head at the hipocracy of it all.
So I implore you Abby to look for the Positive not the Negative. Give people something to aim for that is within their grasp and you create a Positive environment, a new venture needs to ensure it embraces as many people as it can. Try to start a new venture using the Ultimate as you have suggested and you create a negative response, embracing very few.
Again, thats just my opinion, for what its worth.
by Shonnag on 25 February 2011 - 13:57
|Sue B, you are welcome. Sometimes the obvious gets overlooked.|
GSDs registered in 2009 (10338) and 2010 (10364) according to the kennel club's own data http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/7748/Top-20.pdf . Assuming all are UK bred and an average litter number of 10 that’s over 1000 matings per year from bitches of variable standards.
The group has admirable aims but folk (breeders and buyers) may not even know it exists, if regional shows are for adult dogs that have been surveyed then may I suggest that the group considers how information is provided to Jo Public.