German Shepherd Dog > Importance of Females in Breeding (47 replies)
by SportySchGuy on 18 January 2011 - 22:24
|Studs can produce an unlimited number almost of pups. Females can only produce a couple litters a year. |
It is easier to select or find a top producing male than female by the numbers alone.
When I am looking for a female it takes me months....years to find something I like. I can find a male I like in 15 minutes almost. Females are crucial.
by Jenni78 on 18 January 2011 - 22:50
| OGBS, you saw Capri for a couple minutes while she was tied in my side yard shortly after import. Hardly enough exposure to determine I'm doing her a disservice. |
What, pray tell, is Capri going to suffer due to my not titling her further? What are her pups going to suffer? Embarrassment that their momma only has a bachelor's and not a masters or a doctorate? LOL
I'm being funny, but seriously, I think I explained my viewpoint as well as I care to, and have received several pm's from folks who concur, so I'm gonna bow out of this. I am really just not interested in debating what I "should" do with my bitch. Frankly, she's too valuable to me to jeopardize her in any way at all. Those who have her pups haven't complained about her lack of numbers 2 and 3, and have even commented that in their opinions (and some of them are people even you sport people would respect;-)) I should breed her as much as I can while she's young; she has the rest of her life to play around w/sports if I want to further her titles later on.
Goodnight, all. Speaking of the devil, Capri just ran off w/a huge set of elk lungs and I need to go get them back before she eats enough to explode.
by Jenni78 on 18 January 2011 - 23:00
|Something I wanted to add (now that the lungs are safely bagged, lol) is that I think what a dog produces is more important than what the dog is. What I mean is this; of course you have to start out w/the best you can, but once you think you have good quality breeding material, then you breed it. What you get out of that, to me, is more important than what you have in front of you. So, to OGBS's statement about "washouts" I say, how would you know until it was too late anyway? I mean, you can't undo the pups/dogs that exist. I think evaluating them as they age is a far better indication of true quality than to just keep titling the dam.|
by SportySchGuy on 18 January 2011 - 23:06
|Actually, you "owe" your dog more than a Sch title. I see nothing wrong with getting a Sch 1 and then moving on to other things besides pattern training. So much of Schutzhund today is about the handler more than the dog. I wouldn't bother with putting more than a Sch 1 on a female either. If I liked the dog then I would do other things with her that are much more mentally stimulating than Sch. I know of large PDs that will not look at a dog for police work if it has more than a Sch 1. The day Schutzhund became more than a pass fail test was the day that it was no longer a breed worthiness test. Hell......you could probably put a Sch title a Chihuahua.|
by Gustav on 18 January 2011 - 23:13
I like your original post and it contains something that I look for. That is 2,3,4 generations of females from same kennel indicating that the best female was probably kept and thus used. If I am buying a puppy sight unseen, I always place greater emphasis on the female's breeding in making my decision. Not saying that is gospel, just that I feel this strong about the female line in the equation.
by desert dog on 18 January 2011 - 23:36
|Ace, When I said by the time she is 3 yrs. old. I would prefer breeding a dog at 2 years old, but anytime after she has reached full growth. I don't speak for anyone other than myself, so to say that is a norm? I don't know. I do think alot of people wait till they get hips OFA'd , or training. etc. I don't think a 5 or 6 is a old dog at all. I just never breed a dog to have a litter , just because she can. |
by OGBS on 18 January 2011 - 23:38
|(It was 6 months after import, not shortly after import, but, who cares?)|
I am not picking on anyone here, I am just trying to keep a good discussion going that, hopefully, will be of help to those who look to breed in the future.
Again, this is just my opinion, but, if you are someone that is building a breeding program, not just finding the one dog you like and breeding him/her, which is what bettering the breed is all about, then it should be of some help to know what you have over time. If your dog was/is a washout (and I am not saying anyone's dog is a washout) and she is reproducing herself in a lot of good ways, it could be that she (or a male for that matter) will also end up producing other eventual washouts. That is what good breeding is all about. Finding out these things, and many others, and trying to improve on them through careful mating that can greatly reduce the negatives and promote the positives.
I said it was a disservice to Capri because I think she is a nice dog based on the limited time I saw her and from what I have been told by you (and, of course, all those wonderful pm's people send you). Further titling her in any discipline sets her apart from so many others that only put a 1 on their dog.
(See Sporty's Chihuahua reference)
Your statement is, again, why few pay attention to the female:
"I think evaluating them as they age is a far better indication of true quality than to just keep titling the dam."
So, with that in mind why would anyone do anything with any females that are ever produced? Should we just keep following this line of thought by breeders (meaning breeders in general, not anyone in particular), then take it down a notch and say, "Wow this sure is a nice pup from a nice dam. I'm off to the sperm bank to produce more of these nice pups"?
Isn't this how we ended up with the American Showline Shepherd?
by SchaeferhundSchH on 19 January 2011 - 01:13
| Quote by OGBS "If people are not going to do anything with their females, or, very little, why would you expect someone to pay much attention to them?|
If the answer is, "Because I say so", it is a weak answer unless you really have the reputation to back it up.
This is my opinion only, but, I think that it is a disservice to your beautiful dog to not title her further. If you remove the sport aspect from it and the scores, because at the end of the day, who gives a crap about the scores, having a 3 (or a PSA title, or AKC, or whatever) on her proves that she can work/train over time (as in years) and do it while producing pups. It is very valuable to this breed to know that with every female that is being bred. Dogs do wash out and I would want to know that mine didn't if I were breeding her. Otherwise we are left with a bunch of females that we really do not know if they are a much better working dog and working dog producer than what the showline folks have."
"So, with that in mind why would anyone do anything with any females that are ever produced? Should we just keep following this line of thought by breeders (meaning breeders in general, not anyone in particular), then take it down a notch and say, "Wow this sure is a nice pup from a nice dam. I'm off to the sperm bank to produce more of these nice pups"?
Isn't this how we ended up with the American Showline Shepherd?"
by GSDPACK on 19 January 2011 - 01:38
Schutzhund guy.. I agree to a some level. If people want to compete with a female on the high level, sometimes getting off track (civil work) can cause problems in point earnings. Sometimes, little work like that can help to increase intensity. But yes.. I love to do it all and that is why, sometimes my points suffer...but I am ok with that.
by Gemini on 19 January 2011 - 02:01
|This is a very good topic and Jen hate I have to leave my computer. And thanks Jenn for your input |
by Jenni78 on 19 January 2011 - 02:37
| OGBS...I think a few months IS shortly after import, but how is this relevant? I think saying she's a nice dog based on that is the kind of thinking that leads us to dogs only good for one purpose, to be honest. I'm not picking on you, in particular, but it's a good example; you know NOTHING about Capri, yet here you are making allegations of her quality. You have seen her in the flesh, once??? Maybe twice when you picked up some kittens??? You have met one or two of her daughters a time or two as pups, since we live in the same general metro area, and that's it! How can you even say you know enough to say it's a "disservice" to not title her further? For all you know, she could be a piss-on-herself fearbiter. But she is pretty, isn't she? |
To be blunt, and maybe put this in terms you (and I don't only mean you personally) will accept, I don't have any interest in "setting her apart." I am not trying to build some huge "program"; I'm just a girl w/a couple nice dogs. To those who know, or who care to find out, she speaks for herself. Get to know her. Get to know her offspring. Ask people who know her offspring well. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about me or her or the "disservice" I'm doing to her by allowing her to live (and probably die) w/only a SchH1. How many pups do you see me advertising on here? Could it be that someone actually cares enough about the very small number of pups they produce to use the best bitch they could find and it's not necessarily about ego, titles, or money?
I guess it could be seen as a waste that I spent all that money on her and am only planning on getting a few litters from her and letting her hang out and play w/my kid and I and romp and play in the corn fields and horse pastures. But guess what? Wasteful or not, she's my dog and I can do what I want with her. So there. <blowing raspberries> LOL If you need to mourn this loss to the breed, you can have a funeral for Capri's very short schH career. <sigh> How sad, such potential cut short and quelched. It will be very symbolic. LOL
Your analogy is terrible, IMO. They are usually much better. That's not the same at all. How is using successful offspring over a long period of time as a barometer for the breedworthiness of the parents the same as how we created the A.S.S.??? I think breeding single-purpose dogs is much closer to how we ended up w/the A.S.S.
I'm gonna go eat some brownies w/my bf and my wasted dogs;-)
by OGBS on 19 January 2011 - 03:32
|So, let me get this straight, you are upset because I said you have a nice dog?|
Other than that, I couldn't give a rats ass what you do with Capri or any of your dogs.
A little self-inflating wouldn't you say?
If they are well taken care of that's about all anyone can really hope for.
It was a suggestion, and how is it "single purpose" when I mentioned three very different things to do with her? Like I said, I think she is a nice dog and it is a shame to not do more with her, but, that is my opinion, which I am entitled to. As to not wanting to set her apart, I seem to remember that you said you are offering something different that not everyone else has. Isn't that trying to "set her apart" from all of the "other crap being bred" out there as you so eloquently put it? A 3, or PSA title, or dock diving might just show some of that. If not, no big deal.
As for her being a fear biter, it takes about 15 seconds to figure that out. If she is now, it's environmental. You may remember you tossed me your sleeve and I spent about twenty minutes "getting to know her" after I spent 15 minutes or so doing some ob with her. Dogs aren't that tough to read.
Yes, I saw two of her pups when they were young, liked one better than the other, to each their own. I have also seen a different pup from the same litter at more than a year of age because I am friends with the owner of that dog and invited her to train with my club this past summer. She is a nice dog also. A lot of potential!
Oh crap! I forgot! I'm not supposed to say anything nice about your dogs. I'm so stupid!!!
As for the rest, I stand by my statements and analogies. (Got lot's of pm's also)
by alboe2009 on 19 January 2011 - 04:03
A good topic indeed............... What I see here are passionate opinions. But none the less opinions. Here we see/hear of only those that want to speak and I would think that that is only a drop in the bucket of the GSDs/owners across the world. One of my future goal is to breed and possibly to pick up a third female from someone on this PDB. In my eyes I see those who are set in their ways, passionate about how they do things. One can not be liked by everyone! Impossible. But the big picture here is not individuals but the breed of the GSD. One can ask "What is a working line GSD/" and I know that there isn't just one definition. We all know the example of "take 13 persons standing in line and tell the first person something and by the time in gets to the last person it's totally something different" IMO one doesn't have to agree with everything one person says but respect that person when they can back up what they say or have enough "positives" in the choices that they make. Already in the few months on this PDB there are inviduals who I respect to an extent, admire, would like to meet, would like to see their dogs in person and even one day possibly buy a dog from them. IMO, one of the things I don't care for in life or through history is the "translation" of facts. A person said or did something and another person put it on paper. Unfortunately that person possibly put their spin, their intrepertation along with it. This I'm sure has been a topic before but I would think in the "old" days a "working dog" was just a dog that could do many tasks that was put before it. On the farm , in the fields, in the mountains etc. I'm not saying that a dog titled in ????? can't do anything else but in the "beginning" I think a dog wasn't determind by the titles or what papers he/she had. "Working" in my eyes meant the dog kept the predators at bay, fought when needed, killed when needed. Protected the master and his family. Protected the livestock, herding whatever animals, protecting the land, MWDs, in the wars etc.
by GSDPACK on 19 January 2011 - 04:15
|Yeah opinions are good, people learn a lot about things.|
Jenni I am not sure what you are referring to as my ideas about you... but oh well.
by OGBS on 19 January 2011 - 04:28
What you say is very true.
In this day and age, however, there are virtually no real farms left and there are way too many dogs being bred. As I have said many times, working line GSD's used to be the dirty little secret, certainly in the U.S., but, now they are like Prada purses. Everyone has to have one.
I would say that the importance of titles has increased over the years to many because there are few "real" venues for these dogs to work in anymore, and especially with the amount of dogs being bred. Just because someone aspires to train and compete and title in Schutzhund with their dog it does not mean that these dogs can not do all the other things you speak of and be great family companions and protectors. The percentage of true working dogs is very, very low.
The other problem I see is that many, many of these dogs are being bred and sold as "better dogs" to people that should probably not own any GSD (or maybe even any dog) let alone a working line GSD. This includes those with phenomenal temperament. These dogs need an outlet for their tremendous desire to be doing something. Problems occur when there is no outlet. Unfortunately, I see way too many of these dogs. Very nice post, though!
by alboe2009 on 19 January 2011 - 04:48
|I hear you..... I have many "pet peeves" with individuals that have no clue on animals, dogs let alone GSDs. Hang out at petsmart for a few hours. But maybe that's all they know and they need help and direction. But when people who have money but no training sense (let alone dog sense) buy a whatever titled dog and then act or gleem as if they accomplished all it entailed. Saw a couple times where unfortunately the dog showed the handler who was boss.|
by Jeff Oehlsen on 19 January 2011 - 08:39
| I have been around a long time. I have seen dogs that work really well that produce nothing. Females should be bred if you think they have qualities you like, and are a breeder. Then you can see what the female is worth. |
There will always be different opinions on what is more important. ALWAYS. To me a good stud dog is one that produces himself and his qualities no matter the bitch he is bred to. To me a good female is strong enough in the drives and has the qualities I like, and is a good mother. GOOD MOTHER is the big thing for me. I have seen my share of not so good mothers.
To me, I want to see what the breeder is producing time after time. If they all are of a certain quality, then I am not going to be concerned to much about which sex they put the most emphasis on.
by SportySchGuy on 19 January 2011 - 13:53
|Work = everyday job where the handler relies on the dog to make a living.|
Sport = hobby or passion in which the handler and dog practice and train to compete or show.
So working line is bloodline of dogs where the majority of dogs in the pedigree were relied upon to assist the handler in making a living.
Sport line is bloodline of dogs where majority of dogs in pedigree were trained for sport and or titled.
I got a news flash for some of you. Schut was a breed test. It was never nor is it a working venue for a dog.
Im not saying that titling a dog is not very hard work or is not a great accomplishment but I am saying that it is not a working venue for the dog. It is a small part of what a GSD should be. It was meant to be a test thats all thats it. By placing so much emphasis on Sch (because for most people that is all that is left besides just having a pet) The breed has evolved to what we have now. I think it is a testament to the breed that they are not more screwed up than they are. The GSD changes to the wants and needs of the people no matter how frivolous.
by GSDPACK on 19 January 2011 - 18:42
|I dont have a problem with a dog that can move lets say cows..but if you call frezbee work, that I do have a problem with unless it is a 10 year old with her/his dog. Some people dont live on farms and expect their dogs to work the cattle.. Schutz is a venue and you can make what you want out of it. Work is work but truthfully, the dogs in the households sleep most of the day while the owners are working 8 hours shifts. |
Say Schutz is a sporty sport and the dogs are not real; make them real if you know how. Say FH is not real, then go out there and make it real.
"If I want to I find a way, the rest..excuses, excuses, excuses"
That is why some people preffer to train and some like to talk shit about training, we make it what we make it.
by Sherman-RanchGSD on 22 January 2011 - 21:32
| The importance of a female far more important then the male... This is true for physical and mental development. We have now learned that dna itself can be changed by enviormental influences... the influences can be many many things...starting with an in uetero enviorment, physical and mental stresss= those can build positive and negative resposnes etc.|
Also so very important is the prepotency of both sire and dam. I dont give a rats if the pedigree is perfect if the dogs at hand dont produce what is needed it is toilet paper. I often feel it is interesting if trainers and people could analyse the dogs without that pre conception.. you know for fun experiments. :)...
It will be exciting in the future to see how they have proof of these influences now that the begining science has been proven.