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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > 4 month old pup photo needs assessment (24 replies)
4 month old pup photo needs assessment by Xaver vom Kammberg Owner on 03 December 2010 - 07:30 |
This pup came to our home for boarding today. The breeder told the owner, he would "grow out of this", and to use dog food with 21% protein, get him on Calcium and Fish oil tabs, and get him on a worming treatment! I was naucious even before I picked him up. His rear legs in action flop all over the place, and you can see the front and rear deformities from this photo. After I take him home, she is interested in my opinion and hope to give her the most information I can gather about him, the love of her life. I'll sit her down for my findings. Southern California Breeder, whoeveryou are, you ought to be so ashamed of yourself. No food, supplimentation, worming meds, or magic orthepedic pixie dust is going to help this obvious birth defect in my opinion, but I am willing to learn anything I can to help my guest here. . Any opinions regarding this are welcome! The owner will certainly want to start with X-rays and a full blood panel run to see if there there is any auto-immune or degenerative situation present. So sad, she may have started looking into the situation if the Breeder hadn't convinced her that no X rays were needed, and all the other mis-information he dealt her. Thanks for your thoughts, ideas and prayers regarding Sir Winston here. .jpg) |
Xaver vom Kammberg Owner by Swifteagle on 03 December 2010 - 10:38 |
I dont know what is wrong with this poor puppy, but just anyone could say this poor thing is sick or something is for sure wrong with him. Is this pup active? can he even walk? I feel sorry for him and his owner. I hope this can be fix and also that it is not an expesive process. |
Swifteagle by frankm205 on 03 December 2010 - 13:35 |
| This looks like a birth defect not a suplementation or food issue IMHO. This poor guy shaould have been culled. This dog is walking on his hocks for pete's sake man what is wrong with people???!!! |
by Jamille on 03 December 2010 - 13:50 |
| Honestly, I don't think there is a whole lot you can do for this. The Tendon and Ligaments are extremely week. Most times the best way to help Strengthen this is exercise, though it is not a cure, but can help. I wouldn't be quick to start throwing vitamins and pills at the puppy with out making sure it remains balanced. You can cause more damage by an imbalance of Calcium/Phosphorus ratios. And while fish oil is great for immune and coat and some arthritis issues, it doesn't do much for Tendons and ligaments. Though, it won't hurt to use it for preventative counter athritis pain, that this pup is likely to have as he matures. If I were to deal with this , I would make sure that the puppy is not overfed, to make sure he doesn't have and extra burden on the pasterns and hocks as he matures. There may be the potential to have surgery on the Tendons and Ligaments to tighten them. That is something You would want to consult a Vet. about. The question I would ask the vet would be " How much time do I allow the puppy to exercise and see how much he can strengthen the pasterns and hocks ,before we make a decision about surgery ?" If surgery is even an option at this age. What is the best case scenario if I do or don't do the surgery, and worst case scenario if I do or don't do the surgery. Sometimes it is best to do it while they are young and the Tendons and Ligaments have a better chance to heal and still develope properly. Tend. and Ligs are not the best tissue to mess with, they don't heal and repair ideal, like other soft tissue. Sometimes you can cause more problems and spend a whole lot of money trying to fix something that is not really fixable. Not sure I helped much but good luck . |
Jamille by Sunsilver on 03 December 2010 - 15:31 |
| Okay, I am guessing this dog is an American showline, right? This is not unusual with them, and the pup COULD possibly grow out of it. They deliberately SELECT for loose ligaments, as it gives the dog a flashier gait. I'm not exactly sure how this works, but I think it has to do with allowing more reach, and the hocks to land flat on the ground when the dog is trotting. But,. yeah, if I were your friend, I'd take him back. THis is extreme even for an American showline. Here's another example. This dog actually has its UKC championship! .jpg) More photos: you can see how the pasterns have grown stronger as the dog has matured: eclipsekennels.com/GSD/bubby.htm |
Sunsilver by Xaver vom Kammberg Owner on 03 December 2010 - 15:38 |
| Thanks everybody! I needed that.......... Jamille, spot on about the elasticity of these tissues (L & T), and all your words. Onward, will keep you posted. Trish:) www.hasshaus.com |
by SitasMom on 03 December 2010 - 15:58 |
| This is covered in Fred Lanting's book - Canine Hip Dysplasia and Other Orthopedic Disorders Corpal Luxaton (CSS) And Hock Luxation page 424 I recommend this book for anyone who is serious about breeding, raising, showing and trailing dogs. It has a wealth of information. Dietary changes can help - low protein diet, less calcium and phosphorus - but still at the same recommended ratio. - No added meat, eggs, cheese.... they all rich in protein, calcium and phosphorus. If dog is eating a good kibble, add buttered noodles or rice to reduce the percentage of protein. Mild cases have moderate cases have responded to magnesium supplementation - if carefully monitored - ask your vet about this. Its been seen in puppies being fed anything from cheap low protein feeds to super premium feeds, raw and home cooked also. GSDCA sees that high energy, high protein feeds could make it worse. Puppy needs to be given free access on sand, soft gravel and grass surfaces - especially before 4 months of age. Also check thyroid it could play a roll. This is a genetic disorder and even if the puppy improves, it should be sterilized. |
by Kimmelot on 03 December 2010 - 18:02 |
| Use some Vet wrap and loosley wrap over the wrist area ( hopefully he won't chew it off) but it will help support those loose ligaments. Every once in a while Humans are born with extreamly loose ligaments, where they can bend there wrists this way and that, and there fingers all the way back. It happens in horses, in dogs and other animals. If this where my puppy I would NOT give calcium supplements. I would be giving high dosages of Vita C, NuVet wafers, good food and be supporting those legs with a light wrap. Its going to take 2-3 months to grow out of this, as he gets out of the funny teen long leg stage it should get much better. Whisper |
Kimmelot by SitasMom on 03 December 2010 - 18:24 |
| Sunsilver - I'm sure you agree, this dog becoming a champion is exactly what is wrong with breeding and showing dogs only for that "flying gait" .......and for a judge to select a dog with such deformities is pathetic! |
by DebiSue on 03 December 2010 - 18:56 |
| Heart breaking! Poor pup. I have no idea how to fix it. Just heart breaking. |
DebiSue by Ruger1 on 03 December 2010 - 19:14 |
Not too long ago, there was another thread about a pup similar to this. Not being knowledgeable about this condition I assumed it was hopeless. However, many knowledgeable folks posted that this condition could be corrected.......Before jumping to conclusion please get more educated about the condition. Sir Winston is a nice pup......JMHO.... Good Luck...Deanna..: ) |
Ruger1 by nonacona60 on 03 December 2010 - 19:15 |
| Back in the days when I was into American bred GSDs, I acquired a gorgeous sable female pup with the same problems.....She looked exactly like this pup....The breeder told me she would outgrow it, which she did.....It took alot of patience, but she did get better, not normal, but definitely not horrible, just alittle weak in pasterns.... If you want to know what I did, PM me, I will be more than happy to help or at least tell you what worked for me on this girl..... |
nonacona60 by Jeff Oehlsen on 03 December 2010 - 19:21 |
| People get mad at me for talking about culling, I am going to add that certain breeders be culled as well. That is the worst I have ever seen a pastern. Shame on the breeder. No way, that has to hurt. |
by GranvilleGSD on 03 December 2010 - 23:49 |
Years ago, my parents purchased a GSD from a pet shop that had pasterns just like this. She was from American lines, and yes, she did eventually grow out of it. Our veterinarian told us to go to the grocery store and buy the crappiest dog food they had, just to sustain her while allowing her body to catch up with itself, and that's what they did. She never had nice upright pasterns, but she grew up to be a pretty normal dog and lived 13.5 years. She did get some nasty arthritis in those joints when she got older though. I believe the other thread that was mentioned, somebody suggested placing the food bowl up higher so the dog had to reach up for the food and strengthen the muscles and such. Not sure if that works or not. |
GranvilleGSD by nonacona60 on 04 December 2010 - 00:47 |
| Granvillegsd, I did mention about the food bowl being raised higher so that the puppy has to kinda reach up on tippy toes to eat...It does strengthen the ligments and muscles in the pasterns....I have done this many times when I had American show line GSDs. It worked everytime.....I am not saying the pasterns were normal, but it did help to the point that the dog could live a normal healthy life...... |
by Xaver vom Kammberg Owner on 05 December 2010 - 04:40 |
| Thanks so much all you guys.......this thread means a lot to me and my guest Winston. Trish :) www.hasshaus.com |
by mygsdsni on 05 December 2010 - 21:46 |
| We have seen this in the vet office I work at, it is a syndrome. http://www.total-german-shepherd.com/downedpasterns.html http://www.freedomkennels.virtualave.net/carpal.htm http://www.grunfeldshepherds.com/articles/lanting/pdfs/carpal.PDF |
by VonIsengard on 05 December 2010 - 22:24 |
| I have seen pasterns this bad get better with tiem and correct care. Look into supplements, keep his nails short, and if possible, excercise the pup in sand, or snow, if no sand is available. Bury his toys and encourage him to dig in the sand for it. This is the advice I give owners whose pups have very weak feet/pasterns and it sometimes helps. |
VonIsengard by Rik on 05 December 2010 - 23:58 |
| The pup is "down on his pasterns" and is prevalent is some Am. s/l. It is a genetic condition and I have seen all types of remedies and cures promoted. Mostly by the breeders of the dog who do not want to replace them. They blame it on slick floors, concrete, anything but their breeding. Unfortunately, there is very little that can be done to improve the condition. The pasterns may and probably will strengthen some with time, but there is no guarantee of this. Most often recommended are sand filled runs, glucosamine and vit. c. The rear is just a typical result of dogs being bred to extremes. Your friend has made a very poor choice in a pup and a breeder. Hope things work out well for her and the pup. Rik |
by Red Sable on 06 December 2010 - 01:00 |
| I've never seen anything like that in my life (and happy to say so). That is horrendous, front and back. I dont' understand why anyone would buy a pup like that. |
Red Sable
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