German Shepherd Dog > Sending your dog to Germany for training? (26 replies)
Sending your dog to Germany for training?
by Blkdog on 27 September 2010 - 13:36
|I have noticed that alot of kennels send their dogs to Germany for their hips and titles. Just curious how costly it is and what are the benefits to sending your dog over seas for training??? In other words... why are they doing it?? Anyone know?|
by Liesjers on 27 September 2010 - 13:58
|Reasons to do it.....can be cheaper than doing it yourself, not having enough time, too many dogs to train and title them all, not having any trainers or training options within several hours drive, not interested in Schutzhund competition but need the titles to get a breed survey....|
I would never do it but I'm a control freak. No one trains or handles my dogs but me. If I don't have the time, money, or a good trainer I either don't get the dog or find a different activity to do.
As for hips, you don't have to send the dog to Germany, just the paperwork and the x-ray films.
by Dog1 on 27 September 2010 - 15:28
Good question. The answer depends on your situation. You will generally find the working dogs can be titled in the US and it takes about 3 to 4 years. Just thumb through the USA and WDA magazines and see how many conformation line dogs are trialed here in the US and you will not see many.
This probably takes us to your question. Why is that? First there's a overall problem with the situation. You must have a good dog that will title, you must be a good enough trainer to title it, you must have a good enough helper to help you title your dog, if you want to compete with the dog it has to be SchH3 right around the time it's 2 years old or time runs out for a male, female SchH1 about that time is OK.
These are you parameters and obstacles. If you lack in any one of these, chances are you simply cannot get the job done here in the US. There are only a handful of people that have a conformation line dog and want to compete that title their dogs in the US. It's very difficult and when you find someone qualified that will do a good job, it's very expensive. Best example, look at what the larger kennels do.
So the reason people send their dogs to Germany is; it basically can't be done here in time for the reasons listed above and if it could, it would cost much, much, more. Logistics and finances point to Germany.
This brings us to the next question. How do I get my dog to Germany and how do I find a reputable person to title my dog and how much will it cost? The process is too involved to discuss in detail here.
Here are some Dog1 suggestions. Don't send over a dog no matter how much you love it if it really isn't cut out for the work. It makes you look bad as a person that wants to title such a dog, it makes the trainer look bad to title such a dog even if they can. It's a loose, loose situation and the breed doesn't need anymore let's say marginally titled dogs just so they can be bred. There are enough good dogs that should be titled out there. Send one of those with a good foundation from the US and your chances of success are much better.
Find a good trainer and make sure they produce results. Find a dog they titled and go watch it. How does it look? How does it work? Be realistic in your expectations. The titles from Germany are not titles you can take to the Nationals. They are breeding titles. No matter how good your dog is or what it's potential is. Expect it to come back with a C on it's report card. The tight ass Americans are not willing to spend the money on good training. Don't expect to do anything for you when it comes off the plane. Don't expect it to bite your brother if he puts a sleeve on and you say Paken. Take your newly titled dog to a qualified trainer here to assess what he knows and doesn't know if you intend to do any further training with the dog.
Expect to be screwed because you do not know the protocol of the people you are dealing with. There are certain responsibilities each party has. Sometimes you screw yourself by not setting up the situation correctly, sometimes you get screwed because you were just a sucker. Screwing Americans out of thousands of dollars is a profitable sport in some parts of Europe. Good luck and I hope thiongs turn out well in the end.
by Blkdog on 27 September 2010 - 17:47
|Well, I certainly have no intentions of sending any of my dogs over seas... I am not that trusting of a person with my animals being that far away... =) I just noticed alot of kennels doing it... I talked with a very nice lady over there about it once before, she did warn me that some trainers over there just title on paperwork only, and that would be my luck!! lol I would rather be a part of my dogs training, my biggest problem is finding a good trainer with good credentials...|
by OGBS on 27 September 2010 - 17:52
|That's a really long explanation to say what really should be said.|
Here in the U.S. the dog will actually get trained and earn it's titles.
Send it to Germany and you can have a Sch3 dog in a couple of months that can't track, can't heel off leash, and has no business doing any protection work on a trial field.
by Blkdog on 27 September 2010 - 18:04
|Point taken... =)|
by trixx on 27 September 2010 - 21:19
|i have a show line and i am going to tittle him here. it can be done as some showlines can do it , but you are right, not all showlines can do the job.|
by steve1 on 27 September 2010 - 21:44
|Quite simply if you cannot find the time to do it yourself or you cannot find a competent Trainer to help you and no matter how good someone is they all need help one time or another, Human error creeps in with the best of them, and the best make mistakes but rectify them |
So if none of the above is available then do not bother to title the Dog at all, for you need to see the progress yourself, thats my opinion
by Hedi on 27 September 2010 - 22:50
|OGBS-In the US there is no unearned dog titling going on? Have you ever trained or titled a dog in Germany? I am curious why you would say that and what your experience has been. |
by Blkdog on 27 September 2010 - 22:54
|I am sure if you got hooked up with the right person that it could be beneficial. I wish I could find a connection in Germany for Importing and even possibly training, but as I said, I would have a difficult time sending my dog away, anywhere really.|
by Oskar1 on 28 September 2010 - 07:51
I believe the biggest problem you guys in the US have, is to find the right trainingplace and the limited number of trials you can attend. I bet most of you would love to title your dogs yourself, but it does become difficult if you have to drive 3 hours one way just to get to the trainingplace. Even if you do that, you will have to be very, very lucky if that place then has the right trainer for you & your dog. Plus, if you want to complete training in a reasonable timeframe, you would have to do these 6 hours trips at least 2 times a week.
Lets see, from the top of my head, I have 4 trainingplaces in a 30 min driving distance - it is not uncommon to go to 1 place for OB, and then going to a different one for protection the same evening. And you can do this over here, if you are a member of the SV, for you are either a member of the club (approx. 30$ per year) or if you do protection in a club where you are not a member, you pay a fee of 5-10$. I have heared numbers of what they charge in the US, that made me cringe. I guess the trainers know that there is only a limited number, so they charge what they feel like.
What I am trying to say is :
If you do not have the time and devotion and resources, it may very well be an alternative for you to send a dog over to Germany for beeing titelt. The crux with this is in the pudding, how do I find the best place ? This will be your biggest problem, but it sure can be done, do your research carefully. There are crooks out there, but they sure are not the mayority, but that wont help you, if one of them has your dog !! Plus, I have seen it, even if your dog gets all the titeling in, you saw on video that your dog worked just fine with his trainer and earned his titels "honestly", it still does not mean, that your dog will work in the same manner with you !!!
So after all, one should take all considerations into account, and make, that is most important, an informed decision.
by SitasMom on 28 September 2010 - 15:19
|In Houston, TX there are a few training places, but the weather is so hot for such a long time every year. Yesterday we had our first "cool" day since may. The tempature didn't break 90F (32c), and the humidity was only 70%. As I drove through our neighborhood I say kids outside playing. Adults were also out taking walks and talking to each other.......With such high tempatures and humidity, we are forced to practice either very late in the evening or early in the morning. The weather should be back into the mid 90's be the end of the week. The closest practice fields are over an hour's drive each way and clubs meet only once a week - Saturday or Sunday mornings. Most clubs ar more of a social club and focus on protection work and leave obedience and tracking up to the owners, offering little or no help in these areas. Conformation shows in Texas are almost non-existant so we are forced to drive 10 or 24 hours to compete a show. A few months ago I drove 4 ours each way just for a "practice show" because that's all there was.|
I'm working Jyota as best I can, her obedience is going well, her tracking is ok and she really enjoys her protection work. She will have all her basics well entrenched and then I will send her away to complete her training, title and breed survey.
The cost to take her to a show - travel, hotel, entry fees, handler fee, etc is as expensive as the airfare to send her to Germany.
by OGBS on 28 September 2010 - 20:02
Other than a man out in California, that happens to be German, there are no "midnight trials" here.
The experience I have with this is seeing many, many, many show line dogs that people send to Germany and pay a lot of money to have titled. The dog is there for 3 to 6 momths and it comes back here and can not track, can not heel off leash (or on leash) and can do minimal bite work, if any, but, they have a Sch1 or 2 or 3 on them.
It is a joke and as a person with German heritage it makes me sick!
What experience do you have with this?
by GSDPACK on 28 September 2010 - 21:27
|I would not send any of my dogs anywhere. I am so controlling that even for breeding purposes I go with the female..|
by steve1 on 29 September 2010 - 07:14
So what you are saying is this, If i take my Dog for a ScH1 test in Germany, then i only have to go through the motions to get a Pass It is that easy, I will make enquires on what you say i know a few German Dog people it will be interesting to here there views on what you say.
by Oskar1 on 29 September 2010 - 07:42
wether or not there are "Midnighttrials" in the US, I cant say and I wont comment on it either.
I do know, or better, I have heared that this does happen, but certainly not on a scale, that someone could think after reading your post. Sadlay, as I stated in my last post, there are crooks out there, who are taking advantage out of these scenarios. It is most important to do your research before you send a dog over, at that anywhere in the world where training is offered, to be as sure as one can, to send the dog to a responsible, honest Trainer.
My experience tells me, if one only wants to spend 1500 €uros for BH,AD, SchH 1 and Koerung, he probably wont get an intensive trained dog back, but a dog that has the basics down but needs further training to imprint the learned more. The concept is clear, they only condition the dog for trial day, not more , not less. So the dog might pass allright on that day. More than often the owners want their animals back as soon as possible, plus the mentioned amount is not very much, considering that a trainer keeps the dog for 3 month, feeds the animal, trains it, pays the entry fees, grooms it......... 1500 €uro, roughly 2000$, that I believe is not enough for the effort.
There are experienced trainers out there that have set prices that will include all the said above, regardless how long it takes to get the task done. But, and there is always a but, the dog may work very good with his Trainer, but might not with you, I have seen it, it can happen.
And yes, it makes me sick aswell, when I hear about some fishy trials, it gives any honest person a bad rep aswell. Anyhow, there are way more honest peopel out there then crooks, you just have to find them.
by steve1 on 29 September 2010 - 07:59
You hit the nail on the head, and i have said it so many times before
Anyone can send there dog to a Trainer be it in another town where they live or another country, The Dog can be trained in various aspects of ScH from Obed to Protection to even a Title, and earn it well, For the person working the Dog
But when that Dog gets home it most likely will not work for the original Handler - Owner
Why is this, Simple, The Dog has been trained by someone who knows what they are doing
The Owner - Handler in the meantime has not been TRAINED, he or she remains the same as before the Dog left them not knowing how to train the dog or how to remedy a problem, That is the crux of the matter and who takes the brunt, The Guy it was sent to wherever it was. He will be at fault
by Hedi on 29 September 2010 - 12:01
I think that Ulli put it the best. The sport is more accesible in Germany. There are several clubs realitvly close to almost anywhere. My experiences are limited to Germany and Czech. That is where I am from, GE. Yes I have titled several SCHIII dogs and even competed in some larger trials, on the national level. I have not titled a dog here and will do so as soon as my dog is of age. I think that Steve1 also made a valid point about handler/trainers. Another point that was mentioned is the cost of working Schutzhund here in the US...it is almost unaccesible for various reasons. The closest club to me is a 2.5 hour drive (in the US). Where in Germany I only lived 20 minutes from my home club and training field. It is different here. I hope that my experience with the sport in this country is just as amazing as it was back home. I know that I enjoyed spending my time at my local club training with others and most of all having the satisfaction of working my dog at the levels I have. My only request is to not pass judgement on something that one only has a narrow picture of, it is not a German problem. I encourage you to take the time to visit the country with your dog and I think you would be amazed at the passion and drive you see at most of these clubs.
by KYLE on 29 September 2010 - 12:19
|OGBS, where there is money, there is the potential for corruption. I tried to enter another clubs trial and I was informed that I could not be guarenteed the same type of tracking conditions and field as the other entrants. I know of a trial where the entrants tracked at on particuilar field, when they got back to the b and c field they found out 2 club members and the td tracked at another field. Without the other entrants having the opportunity to watch those tracks. Those tracks were V scores as well. To me there is not much difference from a parking lot trial and a trial where the dog obtains his title and given TSB, but came off the sleeve during stick hits and refused to engage the helper again. Its all corruption. None of it improves the working ability of the GSD.|
by wlpool on 30 September 2010 - 14:10
|For me it was taking up to much time to train everyday. I love the sport as a fun thing to do and needing the titles was keeping me from having fun. Now I have them and training is SO MUCH MORE FUN! Plus, now I can do the titles again myself when I am ready and as I like. Was not cheap, but well worth it.|
To send a dog to germany:
BH, Sch 1, Kor: 1900.00 EURO
Sch 2 - 800.00 euro
Sch 3 - 800.00 euro
Shipping - variable 600-800 euro each way unless checking as baggage then it is like 300.00 US dollars.
Shipping from airport to trainer (in some cases the trainer does this at no charge) 300.00 euro
Happiness when you get your dog completely done.........PRICELESS!
( I should mention that I trained with him for a year before I sent him and when he left, he had a BH and some other ob titles.)
I really liked the trainer I used as did my dog! If you need her contact info. PM me.