German Shepherd Dog > I'm a backyard breeder........... (114 replies)
by GSDfan on 02 October 2010 - 03:59
|Here's my $ .02|
I did my research before buying, I spent a lot of time on this messageboard asking questions (under "Newbie"), and we talked to a lot of breeders before buying our male.
You apparently didn't learn much with your "research"
We bought Hannibal from a couple who just wanted to have fine GSD's and aren't interested in breeding. The dogs just did what dogs do before they had them spayed/neutered and we were lucky enough to buy one of their puppies (Hannibal) as he's a wonderful GSD who has a wonderful bloodline.
An accidental breeding??
"wonderful bloodline"....what do you base this on? He has several generations of untitiled dogs with no hip certs.
Hannibal is 100 Pounds??... And you feel the need to boast about it under his comments....In that picutre he's at least 10-15 lbs overweight!! I can make my 75lb GSD 100lbs if I over feed him too.
I'm not a showline person but your Female appears to have a decent pedigree. You would get far less critisizm if you neutered your male and paid for a QUALITY stud...perhaps one with titles and hip/elbow certs.
I'm sure you love your male and think the world of him but he is nothing more than a pet that should be neutered.
by Rik on 02 October 2010 - 05:41
|Well. I was going to post but GSDfan covered it pretty well.|
by Pharaoh on 02 October 2010 - 07:04
|I bought my first GSD in 1993 from a backyard in Cloverdale. They did not xray. Fortunately, from the grandparents on back, most of the dogs had OFA or "a" stamp. They did have two dogs with good looks, good health and fabulous temperaments.|
He had Marko Cellerland in the 5th & 8th, Don Rolandsteich in the 4th, BS V1-Enno vom Antrefftal in the 5th & 6th & 7th & 8th, Bernd Lierberg 8th, 8th, Caralon's Phantom Lebarland 6th & 7th.
I didn't know anything at all, he was my first dog. I may not know very much now, but I would never just buy a GSD from a backyard that my neighbor found in a newspaper ad.
I was seriously lucky. He was very healthy-he lived to be 13. He was a very, very good dog.
by Jenni78 on 02 October 2010 - 13:04
|Not to derail, but seems the OP has left the building anyway. MICHELE....that dog is very similarly bred to Caleb!! He's a Don g-grandson, has Marko in 5th, 6th, and Bernd a whole bunch of times starting in gen. 7. This is what I was alluding to w/Charlie, who never would give me an answer on what generation qualified a dog as dog from "Dog X". Caleb is a bit of an oddity being that he's fairly young to have those dogs even that close up, not that 5-7 is THAT close...but criminy....those dogs have been dead longer than I've been alive.|
by charlie319 on 02 October 2010 - 18:24
You seem to be a bit lost in the woods and seem to be too busy looking at the trees to figure out where is the forrest. Let's begin from the very basic. Bloodline is when a dog's linneage on his father's side ascends through every male to a particularly signifficant dog. In this case, Marko. I do believe that it is quite difficult (impossible?) to find a a Marko bloodline dog at this time thusmaking a Marko male a signifficant commodity and (as long as he is also a fine specimen) worthwhile of breedingto perpetuate the bloodline. Having your dog linebred "N" number of times to this or that dog is not material to whether or not your dog is a Marko or Canto bloodline since all those fine ancestors may be in the maternal ascendency. Therein lies the reason why you are not feeling that your queries have been answered.
As to my "cry me a river" comment, I suspected that you would not "get" my reply.
Don't knock yourself... Assuming that you were born in 1978, you're not that old yet. I was already in the military by then. Listen to Gustav. He's a great source of knowledge. I, on the other hand, don't consider myself a great source of knowledge, but I do know how to research and have no issue with any ignorance I may have as long as I can reserach the matter..
by Jenni78 on 02 October 2010 - 20:01
| I'm sorry if you do not understand my question, and I'm sorry you have such an attitude about it. It also seems that you may be too old to change that, and for that, I am also sorry.|
I asked you a simple question about something you brought up early on, and you never would answer/justify it.
I was merely curious because that (bloodlines "x" generations back) is an excuse that many BYBs use to justify their breeding. You brought it up as a good reason, and I'm trying to see what, in your book, since YOU wrote the post, would qualify.
But I give up. It's probably better at this point for you to just condescend me and pretend I'm stupid rather than admit that you didn't understand what/why I was asking.
When I have a question for Gustav, I call Gustav. He's quite knowledgeable and very easy to communicate with.
by Pharaoh on 02 October 2010 - 20:53
|One of the things that is going on unintentionally with properly bred "improve the breed" GSD's is that the gene pool is narrowing. That is why the Marko Cellerland bloodline is lost. He wasn't "popular" enough.|
The other thing that is in Shadows pedigree is German origin dogs that went into acutal working herding dogs on ranches in the west and southwest. I spoke to the owner of one of these dogs and she was so happy to hear about Shadow.
by Jenni78 on 02 October 2010 - 22:27
|Yep- narrowing because the crusaders are all breeding the same stuff, over and over and over again...and IMO, much of the time, for the wrong reasons.|
by charlie319 on 03 October 2010 - 10:34
|Well Jenny78, you asked the question and used the term "Bloodlines", as opposed to sires/studs, to frame your query. Bloodlines does not apply to "x" generations back. Thus your question was answered within the flawed confines it was posed in.|
Here is a list of bloodlines:
Quanto von der Wienerau
Canto von der Wienerau
Mutz von der Pelztierfarm
Nico vom Haus Beck
Vello zu den Sieben Faule
Frei von der Gugge
Greif zum Lahntal (D)
Ingo von Rudingen
Marko vom Cellerland
Don vom Rolandsteich
Ex vom Riedstern
Wicko von Meran
Edo von der Falkensteinsäge
Condor vom Falkenwappen
Seigo v. Angerholz
Acco vom Bungalow
Ari vom Neffeltal
Alf vom Körnersee
Cäsar von der Malmannsheide
Ulbert vom Elfenbeinernen Turm
Benno vom Giesental
Eros vom Busecker Schloß
Apoll vom Neffeltal
Ziggo vom Bungalow (West)
Danny von Haus Blitz
Arno vom Strohdeckerberg
Those bloodlines that have become extinct, have been a loss to the breed. Were I to have one of the few remaining males in a dwindling (Marko for the sake of this argument, although I also like Eros and Frei) bloodline, and if the dog were of certain quality (depending on the numbers of the remaining specimens), I'd consider such a male more breed-worthy than a more "improved" Canto or Quanto bloodline dog of which there is a veritable army to pass on their traits. The value is that it helps to avoid the genetic funnel effect that has taken hold of the SL's where the vast majority of today's more desired SL's sires go back to Canto, Quanto or, in ever lesser numbers, Mutz.
I don't get into arguments with folks as to whether or not they should breed their dogs. Until there is a law that constrans you, that is your right to do, regardless what anyone here may think. The market does a pretty good job of policing itself and in order to charge top dollar, you may well have to do all the things that are required of a breeder of $2K puppies. At such price, any bad breeding policies will become known quickly.
As to the age and condescension cracks, I can live with your opinion and its impact upon my existence. BTW, you may have forgotten "arrogant".
by beetree on 03 October 2010 - 13:51
|Thanks for the list of bloodlines. Now I have lots of studying to look into. Here's a stupid question: If the term bloodlines describes an unbroken paternal line, can a maternal line also be linebred? Has it? What about Flora or Palme? What would their lines be called? Or am I misunderstanding something?|
by Jenni78 on 03 October 2010 - 15:34
| Charlie, you just wasted a whole bunch of precious time typing that. We can find that anywhere. Doesn't answer my question, but it's a great distraction from it nonetheless. It's fine; nevermind. Don't worry about my question.|
I see by your posts that you're another one that's not much for detail in terms of reading posts. You kind of skim, pick out certain phrases and words, and spin them into something else. At least you can sort of spell and you use punctuation. For that, I thank you. I'll argue with you any day! Your posts don't take nearly as much effort to get through.
Where you pulled this out of, I cannot fathom: Until there is a law that constrans you, that is your right to do, regardless what anyone here may think. The market does a pretty good job of policing itself and in order to charge top dollar, you may well have to do all the things that are required of a breeder of $2K puppies. At such price, any bad breeding policies will become known quickly.
Are you somehow getting the idea that I asked you for breeding advice? You're most certainly mistaken. Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about (if you're directing that at me)? If you're not directing that at me, nevermind.
by charlie319 on 03 October 2010 - 23:40
|Jenni78: It took no time as the information is available on the web. Let's look at your original question from page 2 and see where's the spin: "Charlie, what qualifies as a 'Marko Cellerand" male? I mean, what generation? I mean, I have a Bernd Lierberg (linebred no less, LOL) male I don't breed. Am I wasting him?" and on page 3 you restate: Charlie, you didn't answer my question as to what qualifies a dog as, for example, a "Marko Cellerand male"?|
To be sure, I thought that you were kidding with such a question, but I believe that the question of what qualifies as a Marko vom Cellerland male has been answered. However, in the event it hasn't been to your satisfaction, and for the benefit of others who don't know, I'll sum it up. A bloodline can be defined as a family of dogs that breed true for certain traits that set as a "standard". This begins with with breed type, including temperament, overall proportions, balance, soundness and health. Among GSD's, Bloodlines are based on an individual stud dog (or brood bitch, although I don't believe that brood-bitch bloodlines are common on the GSD register, I do believe that it is worthwhile), usually a prominent dog that genetically throws such quality, that a high percentage of its offspring all breed true for this quality. In other breeds, a breeder may be identified with a particular bloodline, but it does not appear to be the case with GSD's. Consistency and quality are the hallmarks of the bloodline sire as his descendants are supposed to consistently reproduce the traits that are identified with said bloodline.
As to what generation, I don't believe that there would be enough selection on a bloodline like Marko vom Cellerland to make this a feasible criterai for elimination. Ideally, the least removed from the bloodline dog, the better, but one also has to look at the whole picture to ensure that there is a lot more possitive than negative in the traits that the dog carries.
Your question on whether or not you're wasting your dog, does sound like a "breeding advice" question. Is he a signifficantly outstanding representative of his ancestors? How comonplace are similarly bred dogs? I don't always think that titles are such a defining factor. There have been important WL studs (Mink, Crok to mention two) that did not foretell their breeding success on the trial field. Once again, it would fall upon the owner of a brood-bitch to approach you if they think your dog is a suitable stud for their female.
beetree: They'd be called "Maternal Bloodlines", but I don't believe that they're tracked amongst GSD's.
by Jenni78 on 04 October 2010 - 15:49
| Quote from Charlie319: Your question on whether or not you're wasting your dog, does sound like a "breeding advice" question. Is he a signifficantly outstanding representative of his ancestors? How comonplace are similarly bred dogs? I don't always think that titles are such a defining factor. There have been important WL studs (Mink, Crok to mention two) that did not foretell their breeding success on the trial field. Once again, it would fall upon the owner of a brood-bitch to approach you if they think your dog is a suitable stud for their female. |
That was merely rhetorical and posted simply to try to illustrate my point and attempt to get you to expound on what you meant. There was a healthy dose of sarcasm injected as well (Bernd, Horand...lol) Apparently, my tone is completely lost on you.
I understand that my question, using Marko as an example, would of course be hypothetical, and expected it to be answered as such.
Onto Beetree's question....how ridiculous is it that such little consideration is given to the bitch???! Why do we NOT track these more carefully?
by charlie319 on 04 October 2010 - 20:37
|Jenni78: Just because your rhetorical question was not given the desired treatment, does not mean it was not identified as such. In fact, my use of Marko was also rhetorical/hypothetical, as I don't believe that there are any of his bloodline available. Innitially, I gave your question the short shrift because I assumed that you were either ignorant or just trying to make a pointless argument by being cute about such a point . This just prove the saying that "the secret to happiness lies in the management of expectations". I do believe that there is some attention given to maternal bloodlines by some breeders.|
by Jenni78 on 04 October 2010 - 21:18
| Yes, I understood your example of Marko was rhetorical/hypothetical, and was curious as to "how close" "Dog X" (the label I used many times because I did understand that you were just using him as a "for instance") would have to be to be considered by you. If you don't have a concrete answer/theory, that's perfectly fine! There are people who say any further than 5 generations means nothing, while others say with certain bloodlines or even particular dogs, 7-8gens back can have some influence. I was just wondering if you had a set belief on the subject. Not a big deal, as I've said several times. Thanks anyway. |
Yes, some breeders pay careful attention to maternal lines. I am one of them, but I am appalled at the lack of attention most pay to what I consider at least 50% of the equation.
by charlie319 on 05 October 2010 - 13:01
|Jenni78: Let me rehash my reply to you in more digestible terms.... Since we're talking about a "bloodline" when speaking of a "Marko-dog", and they are not easy to find, if at all, the issue your question raised becomes moot. It is specifically the dearth of said bloodlines that makes them worthy of perpetuating. I stated to you that: "Bloodlines are based on an individual stud dog (or brood bitch, although I don't believe that brood-bitch bloodlines are common on the GSD register, I do believe that it is worthwhile), usually a prominent dog that genetically throws such quality, that a high percentage of its offspring all breed true for this quality". Bloodline dogs have descendants (not just sons & grandsons) that exhibit the qualities (desired and undesired) of the bloodline for many generations. Case in point, I have a Frei von der Gugge SL pup (under 1 year of age) who exhibits a lot of Frei-lines traits and is an excellent SchH prospect already working on the sleeve. If we were talking of a similar Canto or Quanto dog, he would not be breed worthy due to the easy availability of said bloodlines in comparison with a "Marko". In other words, IMPO, it is not just the quality issue that makes a dog breedable, but the qualities that it brings to the table (and how readily available are said set of traits embodied in the bloodline), both in conformation and temperament, to ensure that the breed remains true to its origins. Otherwise, we end up with the "nice, nicer, nicest" syndrome that affects many SL dogs taking hold on other traits. IMPO, both parents contribute to the genetic makeup, but the dam provides the behavioral building blocks during those first 8-16 weeks of life and should receive a lot of attention in the planning stages of any breeding program.|
by beast on 05 October 2010 - 22:22
|Backyard breeders should not be tolerated in this breed (or any!). |
I'm shocked and disturbed at some of the lenient attitudes of supposed breed enthusiasts here in this thread. To protect our breeds interests, we must demand a little more from people then just breeding "registered dog" to "registered dog". To condone such actions is abhorrable, IMO.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 06 October 2010 - 05:25
| Quote: I'm shocked and disturbed at some of the lenient attitudes of supposed breed enthusiasts here in this thread. To protect our breeds interests, we must demand a little more from people then just breeding "registered dog" to "registered dog". To condone such actions is abhorrable, IMO.|
I am going right out and breeding a dog in my backyard. How dare you. HA HA. However, if I were to build a cool professional looking building, can I breed there with my registered dogs ? I know enough breeders to know that some pretty damn nice dogs are getting it on in the backyard.
by charlie319 on 06 October 2010 - 13:16
|BYB is a pejorative term used by breeding operators to smear smaller, non-industrial (albeit not always well researched) competitors. If you notice, those who supported the OP, generally supported a well thought out plan on the breedings, the typical health checks (including radiographs of hips & elbows)and a reasonable administration of the Dam. A good BYB is no different than any other, except in scale. Just how committed to objectives can you be if you own,train, trial and show 10 or more dogs. And on top of that you have to breed, care and do foundation work for the litters... Just like there are small (BYB) breeders who take their few litters very seriously, there are substantial breeding operations that just crank out 6 or more litters every year.|
by starrchar on 06 October 2010 - 15:26
|The term BYB, in the minds of most dog people, is synonomous with those who breed just because they can, without any significant thought involved or care taken. They are NOT respected in the dog world in general. There are also many people who are very knowledagble and experienced, who breed a litter every so often and take all the careful measures mentioned above and although the actual breeding may take place in the backyard I would NOT call them BYBs. JMO Most everyone here knows the OP is the typical BYB, although there are worse out there.|