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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Strong sit and bark (98 replies)
by Changer on 03 March 2011 - 06:23 |
| Know that for sure Judron? I have no idea about Javier's specific bark and hold but at a seminar that his owners gave in Canada last spring, I was led to understand that they talked about shaping the bark and the hold with the ball. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, anyone.... I just give this example to illustrate that we can never really be sure of people's training methods, how they got their dogs to where they did and that sometimes we are too quick to judge a training method just because it makes no sense to us. In my opinion, it is not going to distract from the strength of a particular dog if I know that he can do a hold and bark on a ball in a blind. If he then can do a hold and bark at the face of a strong helper at a World Championship, why is it wrong to teach the BEHAVIOR with a ball and strengthen it later by adding drives and a helper? |
Changer by vincentpmchugh on 03 March 2011 - 07:13 |
| Here is a Video of My 13 month old male Malinois. He is just starting the hold and Bark but he shows a nice level of agression and really works the man and not the equiptment. He has only had about 8 or 9 sessions of bite work total and is still young in my eyes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F84U_4WD9vQ On another note I believe that Schutzhund dogs can also be police dogs, it all depends on the type of training that you do, and how the dog is brought up in protection work. |
by judron55 on 03 March 2011 - 12:13 |
| Changer....shaping the behavior to bark with a ball is different then hanging it in the blind. I don't believe they hang a ball in the blind from conversations I've had with people who train and visit them in Europe. I could be wrong....... You saw the ball in the blind at the seminar? No matter how much barking a dog does for a ball....barking at the man is different and should draw a different type of bark from the dog. |
judron55 by KYLE on 04 March 2011 - 14:43 |
| "No matter how much barking a dog does for a ball....barking at the man is different and should draw a different type of bark from the dog." I agree with Judron. But if the training has always been done in prey and the dog does not view the helper as a threat? I don't know if the bark would change all that much. If training has not been done to make the helper an advisary or threat, why would the dog always revert to a deep dominance bark. Now, if you teach a bark command for a ball, train the dog in some civil agitation (at the appropriate age), then combine the two. Then you could see the difference in barking. Kyle |
KYLE by Changer on 04 March 2011 - 15:27 |
| I think we all have a gut reaction to the ball hanging in the blind. We want our dog's barking to be "real" and dominant, and threatening. And of course he can't be dominating a ball. So it makes a parady of the sport if a dog does a threatening bark on a ball in the blind, and then has that same bark on a helper. Again, it would be helpful to see Bart Bellon's dogs in trial. I agree with you all, the dog SHOULD have a different bark with a helper, rather than just speaking for his toy. It is up to the helper to get aggression from the dog, but as a handler I can certainly teach my dog most of the actions associated with protection work, including barking. And if for a particular dog, that includes hanging the ball in the blind, then so be it. We might be talking about the difference between behaviors and drives. |
by judron55 on 04 March 2011 - 16:15 |
While you can surely teach a dog to bark for whatever....I still state barking at the man...especially after the stick hits is totally different. When you remove the dog from the blind....the picture is totally different IMNSHO. |
by johan77 on 04 March 2011 - 18:09 |
| I read about an instructor for militarydogs that as I understood him used a clicker and treat for learn the dogs the barking, and then progressed to balls and similar, regardless if the dog was meant to be for service or sport. Apparantly many that train IPO/SCH was very suprised by that;) How much is the barking in the blind really showing about the quality of the dog I wonder, does it really matter so much, and what does it show about a dogs "soul" in a situation that is beoynd the trainingfield and that particular exersize? |
by WAINES WORLD on 04 March 2011 - 22:11 |
| Here is a link to my malinois hold/bark. While Fado has several accomplishments, I wasn't that impressed with the barking in the video nor the guarding. At times the dog seems to slightly loose focus to the helper. But I did like the fight drive in the biting. www.youtube.com/watch |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 05 March 2011 - 07:46 |
| Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlqcxcnPJHI (this ain't barkin for a ball) No, it is barking for the sleeve. Aggression is not what I am seeing here, or on many of the videos posted. I see frustration. The problem with the whole idea of "aggression" is that it is a fear based emotion, and most of the dogs you see here have been sent to the blind way to many times to feel anything like a threat. Domination. That is a really bad read on what Mr Murphy or any of them are doing. They just want the damn ball/sleeve/reward. The reality is that people would rather live in the fantasy that their dog is being "powerful" "dominant" and "showing aggression" than the actual fact that the dog is frustrated, and has had his behavior shaped to fit a "look" or quite possibly just does so out of this frustration. How many times do we see training videos of the dog on a pinch being popped over and over to build that frustration ? Or do you still see it as aggression, when the actual aggressor is behind him ? LOL My Dog Buko will look like he wants to eat you alive over a paper wad, lighter, whatever. Just tell him speak and all hell breaks loose. He has a low threshold for frustration. He centers on the decoy. I never taught him any of this he just does it. Is he a better dog than most ? Yes. So maybe that is your answer, a dog that has lower thresholds is just a better dog. |
by Changer on 05 March 2011 - 15:18 |
| I always did wonder about a dog's temperament and the blind. I mean, if you've been sent into the blind 200 times and you haven't died yet, what is wrong with your temperament if you are still in "defense"? I mean face it, a little pinch collar and a little whip action is not enough to provoke defense in a stable dog. |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 06 March 2011 - 02:40 |
| Sorta took the wind out of some sails, now didn't it ? Reading what is right there in front of you really helps you choose wisely when picking dogs to work, title, breed. Kinda scary how people cannot see the nose in front of their face. : ) |
by poseidon on 06 March 2011 - 12:31 |
| Jeff comments: “The reality is that people would rather live in the fantasy that their dog is being "powerful" "dominant" and "showing aggression" than the actual fact that the dog is frustrated (AND STILL BE ABLE TO CONTAINED WITHOUT BITING), and has had his behavior shaped to fit a "look" or quite possibly just does so out of this frustration (WHICH IS REFRAINED FROM BITING). “ PS: I’ve used caps to differentiate and make my comments in Jeff’s statement. Personally, I like it very much to see a dog being able to restrain the bite and “look” like it is seriously guarding. I am not the one to test or say if it would bite me for real...... if that is what you (Jeff) is implying. On the same subject of sport, don’t you (Jeff) train your dog to “look” good competing in ring sport? Jeff: "My Dog Buko will look like he wants to eat you alive over a paper wad, lighter, whatever. Just tell him speak and all hell breaks loose. He has a low threshold for frustration. He centers on the decoy. I never taught him any of this he just does it. Is he a better dog than most ? Yes. So maybe that is your answer, a dog that has lower thresholds is just a better dog." PS: Jeff, don’t you think the paragraph above which you wrote (about fantasies people have about their own dog etc) is also applicable to you? You are proud of your dog Buko and your achievements in your chosen sport but do allow others to feel the same for their dogs unless of course you fervently dislike shutzhund which will explains your criticism of the sport (title) and dogs (breed) who compete in schutzhund in your statement below. Jeff: "Sorta took the wind out of some sails, now didn't it ? Reading what is right there in front of you really helps you choose wisely when picking dogs to work, title, breed. Kinda scary how people cannot see the nose in front of their face. : )" I say “To each to their own”. No dog sport is without its flaws. Just remember the real dogs are the ones working in the street to keep us safe from crimes. Have fun with the sport. |
poseidon by Jeff Oehlsen on 06 March 2011 - 16:49 |
| Quote: On the same subject of sport, don’t you (Jeff) train your dog to “look” good competing in ring sport? I fully admit when I am doing something for "looks". I do not tell others that it is power, dominance, or other silly shit like that. Most of the time what I am doing is trying to teach the dog in a way that he will not get screwed by the decoy. Quote: PS: Jeff, don’t you think the paragraph above which you wrote (about fantasies people have about their own dog etc) is also applicable to you? No. I said "looks like" he will eat you. Feel free to come and work the dog and make up your own mind about him. I doubt you will say I am wrong after that. Quote: Just remember the real dogs are the ones working in the street to keep us safe from crimes. Have fun with the sport. Yes, of course. The "street" dogs. What was I thinking ? Easier to train, less need for control, and I get to hang a badge on him which is also very "street" ! An entirely different subject. Still the reality of what people perceive is still there. Perception is what saves the "street" dogs an awful lot of the time as well. There was a "street" dog that was choked to death by a teenager in Houston last year. The handler went looking for the kids and couldn't hear over the helicopter and so he let his dog go off lead. That perception cost that dog his life in a way that absolutely disgusted me. I have been in situations personally where I had no air to breathe and I cannot ever with the typed word express what I feel about what happened to that dog. This is not about whether the guy made a mistake in tactics, it is about the perception of what a dog is. I saw a picture of the kid, his clothes were shredded. shredded clothes. |
by poseidon on 06 March 2011 - 18:49 |
Quote: On the same subject of sport, don’t you (Jeff) train your dog to “look” good competing in ring sport? Jeff: I fully admit when I am doing something for "looks". I do not tell others that it is power, dominance, or other silly shit like that. Most of the time what I am doing is trying to teach the dog in a way that he will not get screwed by the decoy. So Jeff, what make you think others are not doing the same. Perhaps the temperament of the dogs (and in some cases, the handlers) are questionable in their chosen sport. Perhaps low threshold for frustration is required in ring sport to accentuate their best qualities. Can you say the same for these types of dogs in the schutzhund sport arena? Quote: PS: Jeff, don’t you think the paragraph above which you wrote (about fantasies people have about their own dog etc) is also applicable to you? Jeff: No. I said "looks like" he will eat you. Feel free to come and work the dog and make up your own mind about him. I doubt you will say I am wrong after that. Jeff I do believe you if you say your dog will bite or eat me. It is not the point. No one can really criticize the same about someone else’s dog unless it is blatantly obvious like a fear biter! Quote: Just remember the real dogs are the ones working in the street to keep us safe from crimes. Have fun with the sport. Jeff: Yes, of course. The "street" dogs. What was I thinking ? Easier to train, less need for control, and I get to hang a badge on him which is also very "street" ! An entirely different subject. Still the reality of what people perceive is still there. Perception is what saves the "street" dogs an awful lot of the time as well. I mean to say the Police dogs, not any street dogs. I am not an LEO with a police dog. Perhaps you would like to question LEOs their perception of what constitute a good police dog relevant to their work (not sport) . Like you say....."perception" is what saves the "street" dogs an awlful lot of time. I say “Different strokes for different folks” |
by leeshideaway on 06 March 2011 - 19:36 |
It is my opinion that there is not enough information in a video to tell me what I really would like to know about the dog. |
leeshideaway by poseidon on 06 March 2011 - 22:29 |
| Exactly my point, leeshideaway......not for the sake of criticizing.........but for understanding the individual sport (as they are afew) and knowing what type of dogs breeders are producing for their purpose. |
by Slamdunc on 07 March 2011 - 01:02 |
| Poseidon, Please keep in mind that there are people that will argue with you just for the sake of arguing. Often times they do not know what they are talking about or even believe the position they have taken. They do it solely to argue. There is no winning in these exchanges. Jim |
Slamdunc by leeshideaway on 07 March 2011 - 01:13 |
| I'm still waiting for Jeff to put Bucko's hold and bark vid in here. I put in mine even though she's young and just beginning. |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 07 March 2011 - 02:36 |
| Quote: It is my opinion that there is not enough information in a video to tell me what I really would like to know about the dog. Which video ? Are you talking about the Max brother video ? How long does it take you to read what is happening ? Quote: Poseidon, Please keep in mind that there are people that will argue with you just for the sake of arguing. Often times they do not know what they are talking about or even believe the position they have taken. They do it solely to argue. There is no winning in these exchanges. Care to be more specific ? What do you read in the hold and bark ?? |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 07 March 2011 - 02:38 |
| Quote: I'm still waiting for Jeff to put Bucko's hold and bark vid in here. Funny enough, I am not sure that I have one that you can see off hand. I will have to look. Most of the video I have is trial stuff and of course it is never where the camera is. I will look. |
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