German Shepherd Dog > police K9 training-''VERY aggressive dog'' (22 replies)
police K9 training-''VERY aggressive dog''
by leciesters doghandler on 25 August 2010 - 19:02
what do people think of that dog ? and would you drop him out the program? i really like him
by ronin on 25 August 2010 - 21:01
|I Like Him, we couldn't have him the Uk obviously (Licenced) and he's far to much for me to deal with. I don't think he is a wrong 'un, off course it would help if we knew a bit about his training and background. |
Also its about interpreting the behaviour, the seasoned Trainers on here would shed more light on the dog.
Big lump, I take it he is DH.
by ziegenfarm on 26 August 2010 - 05:49
|fred has published other videos of training with a muzzle - for focus. very interesting. i was amazed the first time i saw his theories at work. i would like to learn more in regards to (muzzle) teaching the dog focus, clarity and control. |
about the k9 in question: my first thought was that he had been trained badly from the start, but as the video progressed it became obvious that these were just the sort of excercises that he needed. amazed again. i do subscribe to fred's you-tube page and when i have time i really enjoy his videos. just another way of looking at things.
by KYLE on 27 August 2010 - 17:36
|I like this dog very much. Obviously this behavior was tolerated for too long. The handler took it well. He did not hang the dog and stayed very calm. I like how the diffused the situation with another line. We use this technique with new handler. If alone you could use a tie-out until the dog settles.But I would have to see the dog work and do OB to get a better opinion. But I like how the dog settled and began to take commands from the handler.|
by Slamdunc on 27 August 2010 - 18:26
|I could be wrong but it appears in the beginning of the video a different person than the handler is trying to work the dog in the muzzle. The dog is "muzzle happy", meaning it expects to fight each time it is in a muzzle. The easier fix is to do everything in the muzzle, tracking, OB, agility, etc. Until the dog no longer associates the muzzle with aggression control. That would be the easier, stress free and a conflict free way to do it. With our dogs we introduce the muzzle early and do everything but aggression work in the muzzle for a few weeks. My dog will track in a muzzle and do OB and scent work with no problems. However, he will muzzle fight very aggressively. |
The handler at the end (2:54) of the video appears to actually be the dog's handler. If this is the case, I have a problem with a stranger trying to handle someone else's Police K9. I would never let this happen with my dog. My dog, muzzle or no muzzle will act aggressively to a stranger taking his lead and giving him a correction. The reaction would be nearly identical, and the stranger would get bit or if my dog was muzzled, he'd be fighting the dog for sure. If in fact, the first handler was not the assigned handler for this dog, then IMO the dog was absolutely correct. I equate this too telling a stranger to go and smack my kids when they disobey. Who would ever let a stranger discipline their child corporally? Why would you ever let a stranger correct your Police K9? That is the problem with these seminars, sometimes the person giving the seminar wants to show a quick fix.
There is a lot that you don't see on that video. Did the dog eventually comply with the new handler, sure. But at what expense? I will also say, that given the right opportunity that dog would nail that guy in a heartbeat. I'd like to see the muzzle taken off that dog and the first handler doing the same thing again. I'd like to see him lift the dog up that way with out a muzzle, he's getting nailed for sure. That guy is smart enough not to do it.
IMHO, that whole exercise was unnecessary and potentially detrimental to the dog. What did a Police K9 learn from that? Did he learn that a stranger can dominate him and make him submit? Exactly, what I never want my dog to learn or experience. I would have handled the whole control issue entirely differently.
by KYLE on 27 August 2010 - 18:30
|Good pick up! I watched it again. I see no point in a stranger working a K9.|
by Slamdunc on 27 August 2010 - 21:52
|what do people think of that dog ? and would you drop him out the program? i really like him|
I really like the dog. I would take him for a K9 in a minute, no I wouldn't drop him at all. He's a good dog.
by Steve Schuler on 27 August 2010 - 23:07
Thanks much for you accessment of what was going on with this exercise in this video. I watched it prior to your comments on it and knew that I didn't know enough to make very much sense out of it all. I definitely had not clued into the "strange" handler aspect. Neither had I considered your proposed alternative to diffusing the dog's "muzzle happiness" in a more intelligent way.
by Doberdoodle on 28 August 2010 - 23:04
|This is a patrol dog? Hmm.|
Looks like the muzzle was used wrong at some point, and the dog becomes very uptight and defensive when muzzled? The solution would be to associate the muzzle with positive things, and to wear it as a piece of equipment for no reason, condition the dog to the muzzle. And I agree, NOBODY should be handling the dog except the handler. It is NORMAL and DESIRABLE for a Police K-9 or protection dog to attack anyone else holding the leash, they are one-person dogs.
Also, I am wondering, are they using the shock collar at all while the dog is muzzled and fighting? Why are they using one at all? What police departments are using shock collars on their dogs? I believe the dogs should be trained without having to depend on the shock collar. They are not truly "off leash" trained otherwise.
by Prager on 28 August 2010 - 23:46
|It is funny how electric shock collar is then called e collar and now it is a "remote". LOL. What are they trying to hide? |
This is an excellent dog being subdued by E collar to do what he ought to do. There is no art in that. Fred Hassen is a good trainer and exceptionally great marketer which builds on adage : You can not argue with success. But the truth of the matter is that I would like to get to the dog through dog training rather then these mechanics no matter how successful they appear on the surface. Jim said it well in his first post.
by Doberdoodle on 29 August 2010 - 00:02
|A pinch collar is still called a pinch collar. As long as that is such, I will say shock collar, because e-collar refers to Elizabethen collar, it's the cones a dog wears after surgery. Plus it feels like a shock. We had a contest who could withstand the highest # on the remote (held pressed into the hand), and I lost. I was almost in tears trying to win but it was just too painfull-- "shock" is what it felt like, or a bee sting.|
Anyway, I can't see a well trained dog needed a shock collar for the rest of its life, as Hassen says they should wear them lifelong, and I don't think police dogs should be necessarily wearing them or needing them. What if you forget to charge it one day or something. If they are allowing a K-9 to be handled by anyone else but the one officer handler, that says something about the program. I don't know much about Hassen or his qualifications and educational background to train police K-9s.
by Prager on 29 August 2010 - 00:12
|He can make a dog do what ever he wants in very short time with an e collar.. That is shorter time then anybody I have seen. He is the foremost expert in the field, he can defend use of the e collar in a way that even I would almost accept it and he can sell it. More power to him. I however do not believe that just about instant results are paramount to anything else in training. |
Results do not justify the means. One trainer once told me : "Go with the dog and not against it". I believe that. And I believe that this type (e collar) of training is based on going against the dog. At least what I have seen on the video.
by Doberdoodle on 29 August 2010 - 00:37
|I believe training must be effective, but what about the long-term, not just "quick" ways of making a dog work, there has to be more to training than that.|
I also do not believe you should have to "sell" your methods, if it's a hard sell and it's tough to sell people on the idea, then maybe something is off?
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 00:40
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 00:43
|Let me add I would never allow what was done in the video to be done to any of my dogs. I can see why they did it, but it's not for me. |
by buckeyefan gsd on 29 August 2010 - 02:41
|sorry i hit hee button on accident|
good thread though
by Doberdoodle on 29 August 2010 - 03:02
|I understand, Slamdunc, thanks for the explaination!|
I agree shock collars can be a useful tool for certain dogs and in certain applications. A lot of trainers say the best time to use an e-collar is when you don't need it, if that makes any sense. Meaninng the dog is so well trained, the collar is rarely used, but there if you do need it. It's useful for distance recalls and for recalling aggressive dogs who have a high drive to go for something else, among other things.
That said, what do you think of this application of the collar, also used by the same company, and used to subdue an aggressive dog into giving up, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHAQkT4C9VA My fear is that YouTubers out there will try this at home. IMO it is dangerous for the public to see this application of an e-collar, and I feel it is unethical.
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 03:57
I watched that video and I'm not really sure what to think. There is no doubt that the dog was very aggressive and would have done some serious damage. I think there was a lot that wasn't shown on that video. I was surprised to see the guy take the muzzle off at the end and that was what I was hoping to see. It is not much different than what Cesar Milan does when he hangs a dog until it passes out. Then they show the dog all gassed and seemingly under control. They never really show how harsh the training was. I guess they are going by the "end justifies the means." I am curious to see the dog in 6 weeks or 6 months and see how the dog is doing.
This may work in this case. I am not a fan of using pain induced compulsion to stop aggression. In many dogs it simply elevates the aggression. But, we all have a breaking point, I guess they found it.
by yoshy on 29 August 2010 - 05:23
|Im with jim on the fact that i dont think the trainer should have taken the dog and put that kind of pressure on it from the get go.I think what i find the most conflict with from this video is not the tool he used but how he applied it. If you watch closely you can tell how high he had the collar set to get through as well as his timing. both were off IMO. |
Also, If you are going to control aggression with an ecollar timing is critical just as any other application. You dont wait till the dog is flying about in an ellevated state of arousal and fry him. You catch it before it happens. this is why i feel you need to cultivate a relationship with the dog so that he isnt in the heightened state of arousal from the get go. especially since this dogs body language suggests fear aggression. then train the dog in a relatively low pressure area until the dog understands what is expected of him. then apply enviromental pressure(in the case humans) at a distance and work in, proofing training. this builds the dogs confidence and the handlers as well as affective management of his behavior. same approach as would be used with any device. I do not agree with flooding! Which is what i see this as.
once again its not the tool used thats the issue- its the person using it!
by Bhaugh on 03 September 2010 - 03:46
Thanks for the explanation on your methods for using an ecollar. Some I hadnt thought of and now it makes more sense when I see them on police dogs.
As for Fred Hassen, I use to live in his neighborhood and since I cant think of much to say thats positive about him other than he does market himself very well, I wont say anything else.
I agree with you doberdoodle if a dog cannot be trained (the average companion dog) without the use of an e collar, then I feel the training is flawed. I have used shock collars for long distance work (field work with retrievers) and the beep on the collar is a great alert without having to "hit the button" unless the dog is off track or just not paying attn but for everything else, its the good ol plain jane choke, prong or just leather collar.