German Shepherd Dog > No wonder Schutzhund people have a bad reputation (115 replies)
by Feather on 25 August 2010 - 20:03
|Sunsilver, any modern trainer unless they are ignorant looks down on Koehler those methods are outdated and cruel. He recommended all kinds of torturous and abusive methods. If a dog diggs a hole he said fill the hole with water and hold his head under until he is sure he will drown. I'd hate to be your dog if you read old books for the 1970s on how to break a dog in, for barking, beat the dog with a belt. You wont be able to do well in schutzhund if you use methods like this, you won't have a dog thats happy to work. Plety of schh trainers with more positiv less abusive methods can tell you|
Very outdated http://www.k9densolutions.com/History_of_Dog_Training.html
this ideas of dominance are also outdated, http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?sid=14&pid=1640
by yoshy on 25 August 2010 - 20:23
why does everyone seem to feel that any negative stimulus is a correction and or is wrong?
by yoshy on 25 August 2010 - 20:40
|I would also like to address the bashing of the koehler method. in his time it was the best formulated training program. His methods were used to train millions of dogs to a high level of success from pet dogs to movie dogs- to war military dogs! |
Many have not seen the true representation of his methodology. It will bring a hard dog down to a biddable level or can be used to bring a soft or fearful dog up to workable level if the pressure is applied and released appropriately. Though i do not follow his protocol to the letter a modified khoeler program can still offer a lot in many cases. His methods also have produce more working titles of dogs than any other to date and are still in practice by many top trainers. There is one man whom (not mentioning name as there are crazies here) that is a top field retriever trainer located not far from me. He has multiple national field trial champions- multiple client national field trial champions- and titled dogs in nearly very venue offered in the us, has been awarded military training contracts, and trained 1000's of real world working and pet dogs. and still uses khoelers applications.
And there are others as well.
So basically maybe you should consult someone that knows what they are doing before you bash something you dont understand!
by Sunsilver on 25 August 2010 - 20:41
|Parts of the book are over the top, and abusive, yes. I said that in my first post. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His chapter on teaching heeling is very good, and every trainer I've worked with uses a variation of his core ideas. |
You MUST have the dog focused on you. Some people achieve that by treats, some by having the dog fastened to their waist. A recent book I borrowed recommended you do it by stopping every time the dog forges ahead. Kohler did it by changing direction every time the dog forged ahead.
Also, with basic commands, you repeat the command ONCE, then give a physical correction (assuming the dog already knows the command.) None of this 'sitsitsitsit' stuff you hear so many people doing.
edit: excellent post, Yoshy.
by GSDdrive1 on 25 August 2010 - 20:46
Well said Yoshy. Good trainers recongnize that every dog is different. There are various tools available such as a prong or ecollar, and the various methods of applying corrections mentioned in this post. It is up to the trainer to assess what tools are needed for each dog and at what level they need to be applied.
Your story about your Mali bitch is a good one, and provides a great example of how different dogs can be. I have a very hard female GSD. She can be extremely hard headed, especially when she is in high drive. Often a strong correction is the ony way to get her attention. She is my first true working dog and I had no clue how different they could be from the pets I have owned previously, including both GSDs and Dobermans. Strong corrections with an e-collar, pinch, or a good hard hit to the head does not deminish our relationship. She is by far the happiest dog I have ever had. Prior to this I might have agreed that some of the methods used could be considered cruel. For anyone participating on this post, unless you have walked in these shoes with this type of dog don't be so quick to judge, because like the "professional trainer" Yoshy described you are making judgements without truly understanding what you are judging.
by yoshy on 25 August 2010 - 20:50
by Sunsilver on 25 August 2010 - 20:56
|The dogs in this video were trained entirely with the clicker method. One of them, Sarlot, the vizsla is the service dog of the lady who made the video:|
Okay, I agree with you. Some hard-headed, strong dogs require a firmer hand. But that is still no excuse for abuse. And it's not the method that's abusive, but HOW it is applied. Heck, being too gentle with a dog can be 'abusive' if it results in the dog winding up in the shelter for biting someone!
And I believe Kohler makes EXACTLY that point in the opening chapters of his book...
by Gustav on 25 August 2010 - 20:57
|Lee, good post!! |
I really think this is one of those cases of a person that doesn't know and doesn't know they don't know. This is a person who has said on another thread that military trainers are no good, on this thread they have said that AKC obedience is higher than Sch obedience. My point is I would assume from these statements that this person has trained in the military, titled a dog in Sch and titled a dog in AKC obedience. IF this is the case the person has a point of reference for these statements, otherwise they are just spouting off stuff they have heard and maybe done a little AKC work.JMO
by Sunsilver on 25 August 2010 - 21:03
|Yoshy, good question. |
You could try witholding food until the dog decided those treats looked pretty darned tasty.
You could use a clicker to 'mark' the behaviour you wanted, then reinforce it with praise.
When my puppy is too stressed to want a treat, I gently guide her into a sit, etc. then give her lots of praise and affection.
ALL dogs are motivated by something, or else they're dead. You jsut have to experiment until you find the right motivator.
The trainer I'm working with gave me a paper that described how to motivate a dog with a toy. You make that toy seem SO darned special (by playing with it yourself, and not letting them have it) that it can't WAIT to get its paws on it. IIRC, Leerburg does something very much like this in the beginning stages of training schutzhund.
I'd be interested in hearing other suggestions. Come on, let's turn this into a learning opportunity instead of the usual bashing and name-calling!
by Steve Schuler on 25 August 2010 - 21:38
|Hey There Feather!|
I'm a pretty mellow and gentle guy, and really not a very advanced dog trainer by my own admission, but this post of yours only evidences your own lack of even a sub-elementary understanding of dog training. Are you for Real or merely Trolling?
Bill Koehler's books were my intoduction to the theory and practice of dog training, but not the endpoint.
by yoshy on 25 August 2010 - 22:24
by yoshy on 25 August 2010 - 22:24
|Thanks gustav- i follow and agree.|
off to track my two and do some obedience.
by GSDfan on 25 August 2010 - 22:38
Sunsilver: "You can teach an old dog new tricks... Just keep an open mind, and give it a try."
Feather: "Did you just say NEEDED to HANG their dogs? THey also needed to get arrested for animal cruelty, that is a shame for you to even try to say they needed to do it."
They needed to because their dogs were trying to bite them for giving them a leash correction. It was partly the handler defending themselves from getting mauled...and partly putting the dog in his place.
When you have a dominant or sharp dog that tries to tear you up because you corrected him with a leash for going to the helper when you said heel, you let me know how you make out.
Feather you are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about...the corrective method must be equal to the infraction...you don't bring a knife to a gunfight...I do not condone overcorrecting a dog for something minor, but undercorrecting a dominant dog is not too bright either.
Well said GSDPACK!
by OGBS on 25 August 2010 - 22:42
Do you use a choke collar, as most of the AKC people do?
They are much more abusive and do much more damage to a dog's neck than a prong collar ever will.
I've rescued and trained many dogs over the past 10 years. I haven't had one yet that couldn't be trained using a prong collar. Usually, and if used properly, there is minimal effort in corrections. It didn't matter what type of drive, or the amount of drive, or any issues that the dog may have had. As you know, it's how you use it. I have known, and do know, many dogs that get excited at the sight of a prong collar, or the sound of it clanking when you take it out. The dog knows it is going to get to do something and they are excited about it.
As for food as a motivator, some of the time a dog will not readily accept food from a strange person. This happens a lot with rescued GSDs. They are supposed to be aloof, so, until you have built a bond with the dog it may not take food from you in a formal training setting. They don't really want to play the, "I did something good, give me a reward game" yet. You need to build some trust with the dog. A lot of trainers make the mistake of saying a particular dog will not take food as a motivator and leave it at that. You can always go back and try it again later. If you have the dog long enough most will begin to respond to food. I actually like that in a dog. It shows me they are thinking.
by yoshy on 25 August 2010 - 22:57
by hallix on 25 August 2010 - 22:58
Believe me I know that those things can be used incorrectly, abusivly, but your making it seem like it is alwasy abusive. I use a prong regularly and all it does with my dogs is get their attention. A friend of mine uses a shock collar, correctly, because her dog is so dog aggresive that he can't be snapped out of his 'red zone' any other way. Also, `1zis kneeing a dog in the chest when it jumps on you abusive? Because literally every trainer I've talked to, ever, has told me to do that.
Again I askyou, what are these modern techniques you speak of? I know there's praise training and clicker, but I've always seen these used together with a choke or a prong. WHat method do you train your dog with?
by Jeff Oehlsen on 25 August 2010 - 23:27
| Quote: Jeff, maybe we can have an intelligent conversation about this when you sober up.|
Well, lets see, I don't drink, and you still don't know what it is you are talking about. I do have a primer on housebreaking if you would like me to send it to you.
It gets old when dipshits like you keep perpetuating a myth.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 25 August 2010 - 23:40
| Quote: Sunsilver, any modern trainer unless they are ignorant looks down on Koehler those methods are outdated and cruel. He recommended all kinds of torturous and abusive methods. If a dog diggs a hole he said fill the hole with water and hold his head under until he is sure he will drown. I'd hate to be your dog if you read old books for the 1970s on how to break a dog in, for barking, beat the dog with a belt. You wont be able to do well in schutzhund if you use methods like this, you won't have a dog thats happy to work. Plety of schh trainers with more positiv less abusive methods can tell you|
I see you are clueless about Koehler as well. In the 50's 40's if the dog would not stop digging, then the dog would get shot. They did not play with a stupid dog like they will today. So, you assume that it is harsh, but it is not. It was the last resort.
I was brought up with his method. If it is so abusive, then why does it work so well when you follow it ? Not go to some trainer, but grab the book and follow his directions.
Sunsilver, again, you say you do not do Sch, but are going along with all these imaginary things. Please tell me who it was that helicoptered a dog at a club ?? What club was it ??
THese two little questions shut your ass down completely. Why is that ? Is it because you are lying ?
by ALPHAPUP on 25 August 2010 - 23:45
| Hmm - well .. some people think .. THEY know HOW to train .. I suppose .. you need to kick a dog If ... You either mis read the dog [ knitwit ] . and in that endeavor cannot not develop the correct relationship .. or ... you are so inept ... that you do not understand : when a dog does not perform - try first stepping back to verify that what you think You taught IS what the dog thinks it has learned !! Or vice a verse .. what the dog has performed is what YOU have taught !! Now .. a little laugh here : kick my dog in the blind or any where else ... he'll turn around .. and .. bite you !!.. and you would have deserved it ... what foolishness !! using your hands or you feet on a dog [ especially aiming this to novices to know ] IS a great way to get a very serious lightening bite !! not to mention -- the message " dog you better worry about me ! [ maybe i am your enemy in protection work too ] !! - just the type of relationship you want ! yya .. you'll will have the dog excel at working .. won't you .. a great way to build up the dog's performance and emotion ....... LAST NOTE TO NOVICES . LAIME BRAIN ACTING LIKE THAT _ KNOW THIS .. DOGS CAN HARBOR FEELINGS OF RESENTMENT! again the best way to establish a working relationship [ of safety and trust ] with your dog .. |
by ALPHAPUP on 25 August 2010 - 23:46