German Shepherd Dog > No wonder Schutzhund people have a bad reputation (115 replies)
No wonder Schutzhund people have a bad reputation
by Feather on 25 August 2010 - 03:45
|What the fuck planet does one have to live on where it's fine and dandy to kick a dog? No wonder so many trainers warn people not to go to schutzhund trainers because they are harsh and abusive idiots and not up to date on modern effective training methods. |
Saw this while browsing another thread, quoting here, the context was in Dean or Mark thread another poster claimed she saw a trainer soccer kick a dog and spectators were shocked then PowerHaus replies not just to defend the trainer, but to defend kicking a dog,
OOhh, well if they do it in Germany it must be right. I dont give a fuck what they do in Germany, they eat dogs in Korea so why not do that too. This is not about the poster whos quoted or that one trainer but its about many unamed people out there
I say this: If you have to kick a dog, you suck royally at training and the dog would be better off in different hands. What the fuck more do you people want, you have a dog that is bred for this sport and has all high working drives..... if you can't train them without abuse, then just go quit while you're ahead. Someone can have it all there to work with and you still have to torture the animal to geet it to perform? Whip the dog, pinch ears, electrify the sleeve, shock collar, sharpen prong or micro pinch, go f--- yourselves. Wonder why so many are handler aggressive, I would bite your arm off if I was a dog treated like that
by blair built gsd on 25 August 2010 - 04:19
|I agree with you 100% some people dont deserve to have a dog i see it all the time. These people who do these things give all us trainers a bad rep because people see this and have the same reaction you did. The worst part is the owners who work with these guys that think they are doing rite by the dog because a so called trainer did it it must be ok. My pap always said " if you want to train a dog you have to be smarter than the dog" how true it is.|
by Feather on 25 August 2010 - 04:47
|what fucking planet are these people on..........|
by mobjack on 25 August 2010 - 05:35
by Jeff Oehlsen on 25 August 2010 - 05:43
| Quote: No wonder so many trainers warn people not to go to schutzhund trainers because they are harsh and abusive idiots and not up to date on modern effective training methods.|
So, you are assuming that they are kicking the dog as hard as they can ? Or are they talking about a boot in the ass because the dog has forged and is too focused on the helper ?
There is a difference between abuse and correction. I do not care if it is a kick, a smack, a neck grab, a pinch, a choke, a harness or an e-collar, ALL can be abused.
I have given my dog the boot in the ass, and have no problems with saying so. I did not launch him into the air, and he corrected himself back into heel.
This is the type of complaint that makes me wonder what people are thinking as well. What fucking planet are you on when you make the assumption that the kick was as hard as possible ?
I have a friend who booted his dog with the side of his foot, not even hard, and people complained and cried about how awful it was. There is always a huge difference between causing pain, and getting attention. For some people, people who do not train dogs at any level, just the act is horrific. Shame on them for not knowing the difference.
by mobjack on 25 August 2010 - 05:46
by Jeff Oehlsen on 25 August 2010 - 06:01
| This shit never ends. There is always someone who thinks that abuse is occurring, even if it is not. I have no idea if the OP has any experience at all with Sch training, or is just a big mouth, but for fucks sake, when will this shit stop ? I have owned dogs that will hurt you real bad with your goofy clicker shit. They needed way more than I wanted to hand out, but you got to do what you got to do.|
I would love to go back in time, snatch one of these dogs as a pup, and give it to one of these abuse criers. I guarantee they are smacking the dog after 5 months. That or the dog lives in a kennel with a little door to throw the bowl into. : )
by hallix on 25 August 2010 - 06:40
What exactly are you talking about when you say 'modern' training methods? What exactly is 'abusive' about a prong or a shock collar when used correctly?
by ronin on 25 August 2010 - 10:14
|Thousands of people do Schutzhund and don't abuse there dogs, I don't agree with kicking a dog in training a sport, but by christ I had to boot a few dogs over the years when it was proportional and reasonable in the circumstances.(dogs fighting)|
You raise a good point Feather in a narrow perspective (blaming tens of thousands of people around the world) but this forum is read by old and young alike, so if can't make your point without typing foul language repeatedly for all to read best you keep your emotions to yourself.
by GSDdrive1 on 25 August 2010 - 16:35
It is really disappointing when people like yourself, with seemingly little if any first hand experience, take the discription of an event and generalize it to an entire population, in this case people involved in Schutzhund. You do the sport and 95% of the people involved a huge disservice. There are people who abuse their kids as well but we don't say that all parents are bad. The training methods you mentioned all work well and if used properly are not abusive. Dogs trained in Schutzhund live wonderful lives. They have a tremendous amount of positive interaction with their handlers, far more than most pets, and they get to do what they love, which is work. You should really get more first hand exposure to the sport and the people involved before you start ranting and raving about something you know nothing about.
by Sunsilver on 25 August 2010 - 17:34
|I've had GSDs for many years and until I came to this board, I'd never heard of 'helicoptering' or 'hanging' a dog, and I thought that shock collars were only for dogs that couldn't be cured of bad habits any other way.|
Schutzhund DOES have a bad rep, because of the bad actors who think dogs have to be forced to obey by using abusive methods. These are the same guys who think their wives and girlfriends also have to be frightened into submission by a good smack across the face.
I found this quote from NoCurs in another thread, and I firmly believe ALL dog trainers need to memorize it:
I judge the TALENT of a trainer by how little force they must use to produce the desired behavior in an animal. That's talent. Hanging a dog is not.
by DebiSue on 25 August 2010 - 17:59
|I've watched our trainer use the soccor kick on his dog during a tug session. Maybe someone not knowing the sport, the trainer, the dog etc. would say he was abusing his dog. Not even close! He was using his feet to distract her from her bite (didn't work, she was latched on tight). Just like the stick work...padded sticks. I will be the first to jump in if I think someone is abusing a dog on our field...not gonna happen when I'm around. But those who think they know what they are seeing or who just do not have the facts need to do some research before they start accusing someone of abusing the dog. We don't need this kind of publicity. I agree with Jeff...some dogs are so hard, you can't just love them out of a behavior. If the OP had one of those dogs...I guarantee, the dog would be in a shelter. Just like the beauty Steph has in Montana..."she jumps on us". Waaaahh! What a reason to give up a dog. It friggin' jumped on them, true story. I'm sure they thought it was cute at 8wks...not so much at 6mo. Grrrrrr!|
by Jeff Oehlsen on 25 August 2010 - 18:02
| Quote: Schutzhund DOES have a bad rep, because of the bad actors who think dogs have to be forced to obey by using abusive methods. These are the same guys who think their wives and girlfriends also have to be frightened into submission by a good smack across the face.|
Ok, lets take a look at what you think you know. I have been around a long time. I cannot remember the last time I saw a dog helicoptered for anything less than going after the handler, and even then, I think that was the 80's.
Sch does not have a bad rep, it is the idiots that do not know the whole story behind what they think they saw, and then went and exagerated on the internet.
What do you do OH wise one, when the dog is hard ? Not your pet hard, but the real hard ? Just say fuck it, and throw the dog in the pound and start over ?
What happens when the dog figures out the best you got is treats, or a game, when there is a guy over there that he can fight ??
Are you going to tell me that the dog wasn't trained properly from the start like most butt wipes with your kind of thought process ??
This isn't just a bash on your little ignorant comment, it is also for feather and all the other idiots who have went to a Sch club one time, two times and assumed that they knew better.
Tell me all about the last Sch person you saw helicoptering a dog. Name and club please.
Now if you don't want to back up your accusations, and your imaginary BS, fine. Don't either of you start squawking about bad reps and abuse. There are enough people on this board that cannot even potty train a dog, let alone know what abuse is.
by leciesters doghandler on 25 August 2010 - 18:21
|WOW alot of swearing going on|
by Sunsilver on 25 August 2010 - 18:24
|Jeff, maybe we can have an intelligent conversation about this when you sober up. My first dog training book was Kohler. No, I have not done schutzhund....YET, but I've been around long enough to know those who look down at Kohler don't really understand dog training. I don't agree with some of the stuff in the book (like his very harsh methods for curing a dog from digging and chewing on your furniture) but most of the rest of it is right on.|
Did you know he trained cats, too? He trained the siamese for the movie, That Darned Cat! Just try using harsh methods on a cat and let me know how you make out... I've got a box of bandaids handy, if you need it.
by GSDfan on 25 August 2010 - 19:30
|I'm with Jeff on this one...although I've never had to do it with a dog of mine, there is a time and a place for it...and wouldn't hesitate to do it if i needed to.|
Sometimes it's the dog (genetics), sometimes it's the way he was raised (enabled dominance), sometimes it's the method of training (conflict created)...sometimes a combination.
I have seen a trainer I respect greatly use his foot to correct a dog...He is a FAIR trainer, who has very good methods, trains with motivation but, depending on the dog...will use whatever tactics are necessary for each particular dog. The dog was surrendered by his previous pet owners for dominant aggression (which were created or enabled by them). He was saved from a needle. The trainer successfully trained the dog in schutzhund...he was a good dog, just needed a strong handler that didn't have a problem reminding him where his place was.
I have been involved with a group of 6 K9 handlers and dogs being trained from scratch. First 3 I just observed, just about all the training was compulsion, two of the dogs were very dominant (either genetic or enabled or both). I saw alot of conflict between the handler and dog, thus both handlers needed to hang their dog on more than a few occasions.
The second 3 I worked with...showing them some more motivational training methods that were clearer to the dogs, and created less conflict. Not one from the second 3 were bit by their dogs therefore they did not need to be hung, choaked out or helicoptered. The motivational training created a better bond, in a shorter amount of time, with much less conflict....therefore the dogs took corrections much better.
It wasn't magic...but it wasn't totally the training either.... they were different dogs, different handlers. If either one of the two very dominant dogs from the first class had the same training as the second class, I believe their handlers still would have experienced handler aggression at some point...but I do think it would have been much less.
Part of the issue too is attaining a dog as an adult. If the previous owners allowed the dog to walk all over them...now you get him...what do you do? If all you have ever done is raise your own dogs from puppies and they are raised knowing their status...you may have never experienced needing to do this.
And on the other hand (if you have attained dogs as adults)...if you have never trained a dog in a venue that doesn't push a dogs threshold for correction or endurance in duration...you really cannot critisize because you haven't been there....whether it is "yet" or not. Trying to get a dog to be obedient in a stimulating environment like bitework, is MUCH different than pet or AKC obedience.
by Sunsilver on 25 August 2010 - 19:47
|GSDfan, most of my dogs have been adult rescues. I have had to roll and pin a few of them, and shaken and yelled at them, and I must confess, given the odd one a kick in the butt or a whack on the head. I agree completely that a lot depends on the dog. Right now, I have a very soft year old pup, and we are doing strictly motivational training. I was going to use a clicker, but I lost it after the first session, and was darned if I would pay $3 for another one, so we are just using praise and treats. She's so nervous that she won't even look at the treats sometimes.|
The traienr we a working with uses only motivational methods. She also rehabilitates dogs that are going to be put to sleep if their behaviour can't be corrected. My friend, who has worked with this trainer longer than I have says after a few weeks, the dogs are able to take part in the regular training classes.
I started out with the old harsh training methods and so did the trainer I am working with. However, she found the methods didn't work with really soft dogs, so she attended seminars and training classes until she found something that did. Now I am learning it from her. She has her reception area lined with certificates and awards she's earned. I am still skeptical about it working with all dogs, all of the time, but am wiling to give it a try.
You can teach an old dog new tricks... Just keep an open mind, and give it a try.
by GSDPACK on 25 August 2010 - 19:49
|Yah.. I have been "told" that I am "abusive" to my dog by another shutzhund club member. I could only say... till you get a dog that has some guts and bolts and is not a fragile genetic mess like yours..... untill then you just don't know.|
And I never kicked my dog, yet I kicked someone elses before when it came after me. I never chocked the dog to a point of passing out, I can not helicopter the dog as it is not possible with my strenght. So I still wonder... but then this person has no clue and I forgive this person for tellin horror stories about my abused dog and the surprises of the people when they actaully see me train all the dogs.
I train in public in local parks so anybody and everybody can see me do OB... even children.
So you dont know untill you know!
by Feather on 25 August 2010 - 19:51
|RE: hallix, said: What exactly are you talking about when you say 'modern' training methods? What exactly is 'abusive' about a prong or a shock collar when used correctly? |
WHat is wrong with the situation when people are needing to kick dogs, whip dogs, use sharpened prongs, and go to shock collars and depending on them. If you find nothing wrong with the posts defending kicking a dog, then you belong with them you shoud all form a training club together, just make sure nobody can video tape it and get you arrested for animal cruelty.
RE: GSDfan, you don't know what you're talking about, you say,
alot of conflict between the handler and dog, thus both handlers needed to hang their dog on more than a few occasions.
Did you just say NEEDED to HANG their dogs? THey also needed to get arrested for animal cruelty, that is a shame for you to even try to say they needed to do it.
Im not anti correction, I am anti abuse, things like whipping a dog on the head, hanging, pinching them or kicking them, et cetera. And what makes you think Schutzhund obedience is harder than AKC, I think AKC obedience is a higher level
by GSDPACK on 25 August 2010 - 19:57
|You don't know untill you know.. All I know is that you come here, pass judgment, call people names and insult people who are polite and try to discuss things with you.|
If this is how you treat your dog, the way you treated people here on this board than you have some abusive tendencies..
This post stinks and I am refusing to feed someonelses unsatisfied needs.. not here, not now