German Shepherd Dog > People who know a lot about working lines, HELP! (52 replies)
by charlie319 on 06 July 2010 - 05:35
I'm not sure that you noticed, but I placed the word irresponsible in quotation marks, because the OP used it and I don't consider the reuniting of WL and SL irresponsible, but something that requires a bit more care in the selection than the usual SL breeding. In today's big-money SL and WL breeding industry, there are enough interests pulling to breed the specialized animals over the generalist versatile GSD. IMPO, SL dogs could be a bit stouter and more serious, and some WL dogs could be a bit more clear-headed and less frantic.
My male is a mix of SL and WL and he's constantly described as "gorgeous", besides having the usual Canto,quanto,Mutz cross, he has quite a bit of Frei von der Gugge on his paternal side and on the maternal WL, he has Art-Z-Lipin, Bob von der Neptungrotte, Wumm vom der Kaisersaule (and his sire Troll vom Korbellbach) and he's line bred to a narcotics dog and even has some American in Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan (winner of the Westminster dog Show). He's an excellent dog around the house, has outstanding tracking ability and is very smart.
BTW, congratulations on your breeding of your larus v batu daughter with your Fado karthago offspring. the Karthago dogs were usually very nice looking and very good performers.
by Doberdoodle on 06 July 2010 - 05:57
|I don't agree with crossing show and working line GSDs, either. Just my opinion. I don't know if I'd use the word "irresponsible" in that context, but I would not do it, nor would I purchase such a dog.|
by ALPHAPUP on 07 July 2010 - 14:23
|daryl and charlie thumbs up to your posts. you have points ..to which i concede .. the only exception that i would make .. don't dismiss the show lines to to to fast. i had show lines -: from fanto hirshel ... she did french ring sport and could / would defend being stick hit and shot at with a 9 mm !! - a lasso nueunberg male that did french ring , sch , & serious real life personal protection . my yasko farbenspiel son at 6 months worked so well he would break your arm or leg .. good aggression and self control .. [ ursus and yasko threw some good working traits]. So GENETIC VARIABILITY has advantages . to me the GSD should be aesthetic .. with no offense , just a subjective outlook , many of the working canines s are awfully an eyesore and a number are overly aggressive , an over compensation for a working trait. i am not knocking them for there are a great number of super handsome & working canines !!NO DOUBT !! BUT again .. my point the s & w lines BOTH have their strong points and their flaws .. again genetically variability brings strength to any breed. !!|
by charlie319 on 07 July 2010 - 15:32
|I am of the opinion that the split between WL and SL was bad for the breed and was brought about by interests that pushed aside dogs that did not meet a set criteria. This pushed away WL breeders and made them breed more utilitarian dogs.|
My favorite GSD's are from the 1950's, 60's and 70's. Those were times when the dog was bred more for balance than for any specialized traits or colors. I only wish that we'd go back to that and considering black and sable dogs in the show circuit as there are some impressive dogs even within the WL's that could and should compete against SL's.
Then, I also wish that the SchH competitions would revert to a more stringent standard.
by VonIsengard on 07 July 2010 - 16:19
|My first GSD was 3/4 show 1/4 working, Fedor Armnius linebred with Yoschy Dollenweise as a grandfather. He was a tough s.o.b. and handsome to boot.|
I firmly believe the reason many corsses fail, is as Chris alluded to, the quality of the dogs themselves being used. Very rarely in these crosses are you seeing a V rated working dog being bred to a tough as nails show dog. That, in my opnion, yeilds results, not the breeding of extremes.
Chris, I think you better send me an email and let me in on this cross you're thinking of.
by Two Moons on 07 July 2010 - 16:32
What you will learn here is limited.
As with anything once you have read all the books and heard all the opinions what you really need is experience in the field as it were.
Few things are absolute especially when it comes to breeding, what people do and what they say are often not the same.
Experience and time puts all knowledge into perspective, then you use your head.
In the end, it's up to you.
by Silbersee on 07 July 2010 - 18:24
I answered that question in the other thread!!! GiGi (Gina) and Onyx! LOL!
by ALPHAPUP on 07 July 2010 - 22:07
|charlie -- i think your statement : is quite profound .. i made a statement to a SV judge not long ago "that the GSDs i had from the 1960's seemed better far superior than the GSDs of today ". .. there was no rebutle .. the dog had structure , aesthetics and all -round he could work . KCz ... quite contraire .. NO NO .. others have and quite sucessfuly crossed the two . s &w lines !! .. as a matter of fact it is to my understanding that more breeders in europe are doing the same . another point !! a major point : even the best bred of S x S and W x W breedings don't go as plannned and there are many a disastrous litters . Both w & s lines !! it took a good + / - number of years to create the schism , and selective breeding on both s & w lineages to get to the point they are today . no breed is created overnight and kin genetic terminology it takes more than a F1 , F2, F3 , F4 , F5 generations !! with good breeding pairs .. with the same notion of selective breedings S X W can produce a super GSD as it once was . BUT not if you are in breeding " FOR THE MONEY " [ or the glory ]!!! I have often preached : there is no perfect person , nor will there be the perfect GSD . we had great GSD .. people are just never happy with what they have in life .. always wanting more .. that is what and who ruined the GSD.... on that note -- you need .. a bit more than experience ..and knowledge *** it was the top of the top .. the most experienced , the most knowlegable .. that created the downfall / schism of the GSD . You canlLearn a lot on this site ! Just look / listen // and learn . [BTW as sacralige as it sounds .. there arises the GSD X with the malinlois notion , that's how much there is a call for genetic varaiblity / diversity . IMO I don't think that is the way]/.|
by charlie319 on 08 July 2010 - 02:21
It was not necesarily "the most experienced , the most knowlegable .. that created the downfall / schism of the GSD". Just the ones whose ego led them to think that they were infallible in this one pursuit. And you are very correct in that it will take many generations of impecably thought out breeding to take the breed back to dogs like one of my favorites, Frey von der Gugge, or a Vello zu den Sieben Faulen... They might not be favorites in the show ring today, but they would definitely be in the running for a Universal Sieger title.
by Lexa on 08 July 2010 - 03:54
| Hey GermanShepherd <3|
I don't know a whole lot but here's my take on popular studs :
Querry von haus Antverpa
Tom van't Leefdaalhof ( Querry's son)
Magbert vom Blitzen Stein
Igor van de Herdgang
Ugo Burenswald (Igor's son)
Yoshy von der Dollenwiese
Ellute vom Mohnwiese
There are many many MANY more studs out there but these are just some I can remember at the top of my head :)
by GermanShepherd<3 on 08 July 2010 - 04:24
|Thanks for all the generous people for the list of studs, links, and articles.|
And I agree, I really do have to get a feel of it myself as there is so MUCH contraversy between the work and show lines. I will try to go look at Schutzhund clubs, as well as looking at how show line and working lines are, and talk to the owners after they are done.
I also went to the library and got some Schutzhund books as well.
by darylehret on 08 July 2010 - 06:16
Here's a quick and dirty list of a few important workinglines that would be a great place to start. A few favorite single producers of mine would be Nick vom Heiligenbösch, Yoschy von der Döllenwiese, and Tom van't Leefdaalhof.
Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
by ALPHAPUP on 08 July 2010 - 21:18
|charlie ... Hmm . a point made about the most knowledable .. like your GSD selection ! ... Daryl .. nice list for viewers to read ! .. good job .. AP|
by Gemini on 08 July 2010 - 23:21
|I dont know alot about working lines, but I would think that mixing show and working would benefit if done right as to expand the gene pool. It might benefit show lines more that working lines as show lines may not be as able to work like a working dog. But a working dog would also be a benefit to show and the breed in general as alot of show lines and gsd in american in general can be traced to a few dogs. I have a female and her dam is out of show lines. And when I look at her pedigree I wouldnt want to breed to many dogs as they more than likely have similiar pedigrees. But again I am no expect. Just giving my two cents.|
by darylehret on 09 July 2010 - 00:31
|A lot of people have stated such before, and it all rides on the belief that "expanding the gene pool" is a good thing. They teach it in school, experts all say it, but there is no scientific proof that "genetic diversity" is beneficial, or that it should be desireable in most if any instances. It can be, when the environment is dramatically altered in such a manner that would challenge the survival of the current type, which has become no longer "fitting" to it's original purpose.|
A better focus on retaining what's important would be nice (and it sure ain't looks). The selection process for the "sporting type" has resulted in the canalization of traits in the breed that have become a little more geared for the sport, and a little less suitable for real work. Conversely, you have dogs that have been selected for real and tough jobs that would suck at sport. Who really wants to expand the breed with a larger selection of "crap genes" for the superficial sake of looks?
Showline people who ruined their division of the breed desire to plague the workinglines with overly roached backs, weak-ass-ends, and weak temperaments?! There's already quite enough diversity in the temperaments and working drives of the working lines as it stands, which complements well enough the wide variety of handlers who are concerned with an already damned good-looking breed of utility.
Showlines have nothing to benefit workinglines, not even those smashing good looks (blehhg), and would only contaminate the breed with the effects of outbreeding depression. Again, NOTHING to contibute. Showline breeders have backed themselves into a corner, from generations of selecting a lesser dog with a (very subjectively) better appearance. If that appearance were to lend anything truly better to the breed, than our workinglines would look more like like what? Showlines!
by ALPHAPUP on 09 July 2010 - 12:55
|Daryl ........... re: your post .. HMMMMMMM... won't comment .. but if what you say is 100% ... then i am going to count myself darn lucky !! I have a S X L cross , now 7.5 years old .. stunningly handsome black/tan at 10 months old he helped with a police demo , apprehensions from both feeling and frontal ATTACKS , initial stages of defending the handler w/o command to prevent body attack during escort , guard and holds , automatic apprehension upon attempted escapes- stick hits in all exercises . as often i wrote he has V rated structure -- meaning quite agile [ agility exercises in ring sport ] , covers a lot of ground fast !.. fast into the attack with crushing hard bite .. he did french ring .. first session of belgium ring he almost broke the decoys arm and brought him to the ground !! so for a S XW gsd i will consider myself again darn blessed if the show lines and working lines have nothing to contribute to each other !! BTW - he got invitation to be taken for Bundessiegerprufung !!. wow ... ?? about genetic diversity ..|
by charlie319 on 09 July 2010 - 14:00
|The fact is that "sports" were developed to aid in identifying dogs with working aptitude to breed. Now, we have the sport dictating the breeding of dogs for the sport.|
"roach-backs" have their own reason to exist, albeit one that is very show (not even showline) speciffic. maintaining a broad genepool is good for the breed. A lot of WL dogs could pass for SL candidates except for the color... The problem is that a lot of SL breeders have deviated from the breed standard in their pursuit of physical traits, just like some WL's breeders have done. IMPO, both WL and SL's are just the same animal with differently overemphasized characteristics.
by GSDPACK on 09 July 2010 - 16:09
|Daryl, which pup is it? I imported couple from her kennel. Well my female died couple of years ago due to poisoning (hike in a wolf area). But her sister is in FL and her brother is a dual PD up North.|
She is the only breeder I lnow off who can take a dog and actually works them from a puppy all the way to their potencial. SHe is a nic, nice person and trully knows her dogs!
by darylehret on 09 July 2010 - 17:55
|The pup in my avatar? That would be Nyx Skočická samota, and I couldn't agree with you more about her breeder, who would come highly recommended by me.|
by darylehret on 09 July 2010 - 17:55