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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Really confuse with Show line vs Work line (61 replies)
by oso on 08 June 2010 - 15:09 |
| Ok, well I went to a talk by two SV judges at the weekend and it was quite interesting. Obviously these are confirmed showline people and there was no one representing the working line point of view, but when someone asked about the division between the two lines, one of the judges said that now some breeders of top working line dogs are starting to pay more attention to structure and movement and more working line dogs owners are attempting to get a V qualification for their dogs. However, the other judge said that most of the WL breeders are not at all interested in structure and (at least in Germany) the top dogs in Schutzhund sport are being bred to become harder and more dominant all the time. He said the dogs that are winning in this sport in Germany are not balanced GSDs, they are very, hard, dominant and in some cases aggressive dogs that can only be managed by expert trainers, and that this is not how the true GSD should be. The GSD is a sociable, manageable, obedient dog, that is courageous and sure of itself but totally trainable, capable of working in diverse areas and also living as a family companion. Regarding the structure, he said that over the last 100 years we have been getting closer and closer to the ideal structure envisaged by Stephanitz, and he felt that in the next 100 years the appearance of the GSD will not change any where near as much as it has so far, as we are now so close to the ideal. With two exceptions that need to be addressed now, one being ove-angulation and weak hocks (taken to the extreme in American Line dogs but also over exaggerated in German show lines over the last few years). This affects the dogs´ working ability and so should be considered as a serious fault. Also there as been a scientific study that shows that cases of torsion are more frequent in over-angulated dogs, probably because during movement the stomach does not remain level but flops downwards in the abdomen in these dogs. According to the judge, the GSD should have a slightly sloping back (the withers should be higher than the croup) and they should have sufficient rear angulation to allow for a good push from behind but not too much so that the hocks are very unstable or so much slope that they look like hyaenas!. And I noticed that in the show we had on Sunday over-angualted dogs were penalized more than ever before, I think they are serious about this, and I had already got this impression reading the judges reports of last year's sieger show. The other aspect that needs to be addressed according to these judges is size, there was a lot of discussion about this, not so relevant to the topic in question here. |
by Louise M. Penery on 08 June 2010 - 18:41 |
| Marko vom Cellerland, or Mutz vd Peltzerferm, or Bernd v Lierberg Interesting, Gustav, my nice working SL males with balanced drives have athe above dogs behind them. Breed type rrefers to those characteristics more typical of the GSD breed than of other breeds/ |
by SchHBabe on 08 June 2010 - 19:28 |
| This debate makes me giggle every time. While GSD enthusiasts rail against one another over the correct angle of the forearm, the GSD as a true working dog in active working service is slowly being replaced by the Malinois. The US Department of Defense uses only 100% Malinois now in their own military working dog breeding program. I actually contacted one of the guys there and asked why the Malinois has trumped the GSD. The answers are very practical: "they live longer, can work longer, have fewer health problems." So go on and gaggle back and forth over "toplines"... the more that folks use the show ring and the SchH field as their prime criteria for breeding, the more the GSD loses ground as a serviceable breed. It really tickled my funny bone to read about the GERMAN Special Forces paratrooper division that also replaced their GSD's with Mali's. LOL Kinda telling when the Germans choose not to use their "own" breed for their own military programs, when soldiers lives are on the line, and not just stud fees and points in a trial. And no, I do NOT own a Malinois. GSD 100%. But I only dabble in SchH for fun. If I had to risk my neck on a daily basis with a dog as a partner, I certainly would not be choosing a dog based on "correct side gait". :D Kudos to the GSD breeders who breed for power and performance not points and pigment, or else we'd have nothing left but "hobby" dogs to play games with on the fields. |
SchHBabe by Red Sable on 08 June 2010 - 20:08 |
| Great post SchHbabe. |
Red Sable by poseidon on 08 June 2010 - 20:28 |
All I see in those words above is nothing more than scaremongering & instead lining their own pockets (judges and breeders of such) in gross market sales of nice looking and watered down version of a GSD. A true German Shepherd dog is not for everyone or anyone. A true GSD requires proper training and leadership roles to be all that. A true GSD does not metamorphosis on its own. SchBabe you are so right about the demise for the GSD breed as with comments made by Gustav, Prager and others. Let’s hope the fad will not be inflicted upon the malinois. |
poseidon by Gustav on 09 June 2010 - 05:48 |
| Louise, Look at the coefficient of breeding on these three dogs, and look at the same data on the dogs in your showline dogs AFTER these dogs, (afterall these dogs are from the 60's and early seventies). If you don't see the difference, if you don't see the saturation on Canto/Quanto, if you don't realize what happens to continued backmassing on one or two dogs for many many generations......then I guess I was mistaken in bringing up these dogs because I felt that the really knowledgeable people understood the genetic difference in these dogs makeup and current showlines. The genetic saturation of current showlines has NOTHING to do with people's misguided views on how the current showlines lack working ability in general...RIGHT!!!!...... Even though that thinking makes a lot of people happy, (or not guilty), it still doesn't change the truth of the state of these lines. |
by Gustav on 09 June 2010 - 05:49 |
| Louise, Look at the coefficient of breeding on these three dogs, and look at the same data on the dogs in your showline dogs AFTER these dogs, (afterall these dogs are from the 60's and early seventies). If you don't see the difference, if you don't see the saturation on Canto/Quanto, if you don't realize what happens to continued backmassing on one or two dogs for many many generations......then I guess I was mistaken in bringing up these dogs because I felt that the really knowledgeable people understood the genetic difference in these dogs makeup and current showlines. The genetic saturation of current showlines has NOTHING to do with people's misguided views on how the current showlines lack working ability in general...RIGHT!!!!...... Even though that thinking makes a lot of people happy, (or not guilty), it still doesn't change the truth of the state of these lines. |
by Gustav on 09 June 2010 - 05:55 |
| Sorry for the double post. As for the remarks from the two conformation judges......if these are the people who have put up the dogs with the hocks and angulation issues, not to mention color and temperament issues, why would I be impressed with their rationalization of the breed today. They are major contributors to continuing this downward spiral....They have to justify their actions don't they????/ |
by oso on 09 June 2010 - 13:28 |
| Well, at least they recognize that mistakes have been made and are trying to do something about it now, WL breeders have been far from perfect too, ignoring certain aspects and over-exaggerating others. There was also a long discussion in the talk just about this predominance of the Canto/Quanto lines and the mistakes that have been made in letting certain lines become extinct by only promoting one or very few representatives of these lines (if these individuals happen to not produce well the line dies out). This is another aspect they are now recognizing that has to be addressed, diversification. |
by charlie319 on 09 June 2010 - 14:42 |
| In regards to oso's post: "but when someone asked about the division between the two lines, one of the judges said that now some breeders of top working line dogs are starting to pay more attention to structure and movement and more working line dogs owners are attempting to get a V qualification for their dogs. However, the other judge said that most of the WL breeders are not at all interested in structure and (at least in Germany) the top dogs in Schutzhund sport are being bred to become harder and more dominant all the time. He said the dogs that are winning in this sport in Germany are not balanced GSDs, they are very, hard, dominant and in some cases aggressive dogs that can only be managed by expert trainers, and that this is not how the true GSD should be. The GSD is a sociable, manageable, obedient dog, that is courageous and sure of itself but totally trainable, capable of working in diverse areas and also living as a family companion." Maybe some breeders have started to pay attention to structure and movement, but only to make their dogs more profitable. Look at Javir vom Talka Marda. That is a dog that could and should compete in conformation with the cream of the SL dogs. However, the color puts him at a perceptual disadvantage (sable is not a fault in the standard, but appears to be in the show judges mind) with the governing body. A "V" rating on a WL dog is a great tool for a breeder to differentiate himself from the rest of that market and create deamnd for his product. The toning down of the SL's downfall, over-angulation and hock issues, are not addressed so much by the judges, but by the constant protests of the non-competition buyers who want a dog that is sound. By the same token, top flight competition dogs should have as much in common with the rest of their breed as Carl Lewis or Mike Tyson would have with any of us. Also, it shows that the breeding of DDR and Czech dogs who were bred for border patrol duty is starting to show in the breed in accordance to the 3 generation statement. Is this a fault? I don't think so, as long as the handler is up to the task. Would a pup from two of these dogs be advisable for most homesthat are not in the business of competition,? I don't think so. I believe that the GSD temperament should always have a substantial defense drive as well as suspicion, because it is a herding dog and by its nature it is vigilant and while defense drive is not always on the surface, it is always available to be tapped into. I have friends who have malis and "dutchies" and while I like them, I doubt I'd have one. IMPO, Malis are just waaaay to active and easily agitated for my taste. I'm certain that these qualities may be an advantage in some tactical environments, but not for me. These dogs are always ready for a challenge, may be better suited for hotter climates and do not seem to get tired. However, I find the GSD to be more even tempered and less frantic in its execution of protection work and a safer bet from the standpoint of temperament. This just plays into the difficulty of the ideal. It is much easier for the breeder to zero in on the few "traits-du-jour" that the market seeks at any given time and sell these dogs at premium prices than it is to breed a very balanced creature where excellence is attained in both the functional and the aesthetic. The problem with that is that it leaves the breed with an ever shallower gene pool. This "Videx" article is a brief treatment on the issue and shows that breeding for both work and aesthetics can be done. Granted, it is hard to breed dogs like Bernd Lierberg, Seffe Busecker Schloss, Mutz Pelztierfarm, Frei Gugge, Nico Haus Beck, Mike Bungalow and Greif Lahntal, but recently, we've seen |
charlie319 by Red Sable on 09 June 2010 - 15:24 |
"I believe that the GSD temperament should always have a substantial defense drive as well as suspicion, because it is a herding dog and by its nature it is vigilant and while defense drive is not always on the surface, it is always available to be tapped into."  Whole post was great, but this is really important IMO and what seems to be bred out of many of the current showlines. At least the ones that I know of, and Mrks apparently.  |
by oso on 09 June 2010 - 19:58 |
| I do agree that the GSD should have a good defense drive, it is not a labrador! But, while there are some GSDs like this (lacking either defense or prey drive) these are not the ones that will do well ultimately. The best show line dogs do have sufficient defense drive, but it is up to the breeder to be discriminating in this respect, when it comes to choosing breeding partners or which puppies in a litter to keep. |
by Rik on 09 June 2010 - 20:34 |
| oso, what do you base this assessment on (best s/l dogs have defense drive). And I'm a s/l person and not trying to contradict you. Just that I have been to Germany, made the tour of kennels, seen the dogs and I was not able to come to this conclusion as to the best s/l dogs all have good character. Can you provide a list (by PM) of the dogs that have both top conformation and good defense. Please include only the dogs that you have personal knowledge of and have "placed your hands on", so to speak. I have what I consider a very nice bitch that I have so far not been willing to breed because I have not been able to identify a dog such as you describe. Again, not trying to be a smart ass. Just that after many years of contributing to the decline of the GSD (Am. s/l), I would like to identify dogs that can contribute to both structure and character. Best, Rik |
by oso on 09 June 2010 - 22:42 |
| Actually what I meant when I said the best SL dogs, I did not mean necessarily the VAs, the top dogs, I meant the best all rounders. I have to say I have never seen any of the top German dogs in person and I know there are some issues with some of them, they are not all of them that great in temperament and I have heard that half of the present sieger's offspring have failed the bitework, so no, I am not looking through rose-coloured glasses. I can tell you several SL dogs from here, Ecuador, that have excellent temperaments, but this will not mean much to you.....I do remember that a few years ago the bite work in the German sieger was a lot more impressive than recently (Ghandi Arlett, Hill Farbenspiel, Ando Altenbergerland spring to mind just off the top of my head), but I have not yet seen videos of all the current VAs and top V dogs, if I had the opportunity to breed a female with a top German male I would want to look in more detail at his temperament and that of his progeny before making a decision, same if I one day consider buying a German puppy, I know from personal experience you can get good temperaments in SL dogs but you have to do your homework, and I think I already mentioned in an earlier post that this is for sure an issue that needs improving.... |
by AandA on 10 June 2010 - 09:00 |
| Is a dog's 'character/temperament' detailed in the Korbuch? |
AandA by oso on 10 June 2010 - 13:34 |
| Not usually in detail, only that they bite with courage and release on order, if a dog shows exceptional temperament it may or may not be mentioned |
by DuvalGSD on 10 June 2010 - 14:32 |
| i alsways wondered the difference...................thanks for the info |
DuvalGSD by charlie319 on 10 June 2010 - 16:09 |
| Rik: If I were you, I would look at the dogs that have done well in Universal Sieger type competition. This however is not a surefire remedy, since you still have to do your research on pedigrees, temperament and such to ensure that the product of the breeding is better than the sum of its parents. I'm really impressed with Javir vom Talka Marda, but I'm asuming that you are looking for more SL emphasis. Thus, my first option for a recent Universal Sieger for stud would have to be Danny on Lesimo, a well constructed son of the working dog Xato von der bosen Nachbarschaft and of Mutz bloodline. Other options might include Falko vom Wolfsblick, Benny v. Haus Pe-Ja, or a descendant of Lasso von Kampchen, a descendant of Bastin vom Kokeltal. or a suitably bred descendant of Trimph's Gucci. IMPO, another option might be Lasso vom Petersbrunnen whose sire is Danny Vom Lesimo and 2001 Universal Sieger Honda vom Petersbrunnen. In this case, you may be hoping that the pups resemble not so much the parents, but the grandparents. Most of these options are not likely to do well on a top conformation show (not only due to color) and may rely on the dam to provide much of the aesthetics, but will offer a formidable mix of looks and working ability that harkens back to the 1960's and 1970's, Going on the males alone, I'd like Danny vom Lesimo and Benny vom Haus Pe-Ja as being the safest bets or least risky. Were Triumph's'Gucci alive, he would be the shoo-in candidate, but his offspring do somewhat increase the uncertainty and should be looked at individually to ensure that they are an improvement over their sire. Anyways, just offering a hypothetical set of options. |
by Gustav on 10 June 2010 - 20:10 |
| OK, let's take Triumph's Guicci, he had superb temperament and very high V conformation. Now some of the sheep will tell you that the VA dogs aren't the dogs to look for in terms of working quality.....so I would assume that Guicci would be a perfect candidate for these VA females and high V females to be bred to so that temperament could improve and we keep our color and genetics. I am curious as to the quality of females(I mean VA or high V at National show), was he bred to???? I would assume many many of these types, if the powers that be were really interested in "improving" performance as I am led to believe. Just curious. |
by charlie319 on 10 June 2010 - 20:30 |
| As usual, good observation Gustav. I've noticed that he was bred to a number of high quality females including Quanda vom Frankengold and Krafta von der Urbecke. Here's the roster of breedings: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny/119534.html |
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