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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Really confuse with Show line vs Work line (61 replies)
Really confuse with Show line vs Work line by Mrk on 04 June 2010 - 06:20 |
| hello all, i spent a lot of hours reading thru all these message boards and from what i learn, show line owner claim the show line are as good as the working line. people who own,train, and/or decoy with both show line and work line claim they prefer work line over show line but didnt give a reason why. other than the dogs being different in color, maybe size/speed and price (some show line seem to be ridiculous high price), what is the difference between the two? should they be consider two different breed? are they still german shepherd if you breed showline to workline? why do i see showline with only blk/red dogs and no workline dogs or sable or black dogs in their pedigree while workline have sable to black dogs and no blk/red or showline dogs in their pedigree? isnt IPO equivalent to SCH? the videos ive seen on youtube, they do the same training and perform almost the same. |
by oso on 04 June 2010 - 12:52 |
| You will see a lot of discussion about this topic, I think there have been other related threads. Really there should be only one German Shepherd which is a working dog of excellent temperament but also of good structure - mainly I because the correct angulations and conformation make this dog much more efficient in movement, capable of trotting long distances without becoming tired etc. but the aesthetic aspect has also come to play an important part. Now some people have concentrated more on the working aspect, breeding dogs with the highest drives, firmest grips, best temperament to compete in schutzhund, while others have concentrated more on beauty. In both cases certain aspects have been neglected or overdone. I get the impression that some people are starting to be concerned about this division. Tomorrow I am going to a talk by SV judges Heinz Scheerer and Leonard Schweikert about the Future of the German Shepherd Dog (I believe its a talk that has already been given in Germany). This should be very interesting. |
by Gustav on 04 June 2010 - 13:50 |
| The difference in the two types of dogs is genetics, pure and simple. Get a 10 generation pedigree on a showline dog and a workingline dog. Put them side by side and by the seventh generation(maybe the fifth), you will clearly see the differences. Then read any book on genetics and read about the effects of what you have before you and it will become clear to you. |
by Rik on 04 June 2010 - 14:37 |
| From my point of view, the first 3 traits for breeding top s/l would be type, gait then working ability, pretty much in that order. The first traits in the top working/sport dogs are just that, working/sport ability. Emphasis on type will vary greatly with individual breeders. This is a very general observation, but it doesn't take long until any type of controlled breeding program will begin to show exaggerated characteristics for the selected traits bred for.and losing some in traits further down the the list. JMHO, Rik |
by charlie319 on 04 June 2010 - 16:38 |
| MRK: Listen to Gustav... The man knows. To understand the SL/WL split in the breed, one has to go back to the 1950's through the 1980's, when the breed slowly bifurcated into the two types. Do some research on it, but I personally blame the Martin Brothers for this. Show line dogs are primarily bred for their aesthetics. Working line dogs are mostly bred for working ability and lately for specific physical traits. IMPO, WL are running the same risk as SL of becoming too market driven and concentrating on a few traits while losing sight of the dog as a whole Temperament shlould always come first, regardless of the proposed use of the dog. |
charlie319 by VomMarischal on 04 June 2010 - 17:02 |
| "From my point of view, the first 3 traits for breeding top s/l would be type, gait then working ability, pretty much in that order." "Temperament should always come first, regardless of the proposed use of the dog." Therein lies the discrepancy between the two lines. |
by oso on 04 June 2010 - 17:06 |
| I like excellent type, structure and movement, but not at the expense of temperament - and it does not need to be.. Many show line dogs do have excellent temperament, but I do agree that this aspect has tended to be ignored as a priority in many cases. |
by Louise M. Penery on 04 June 2010 - 17:13 |
| The difference is a myth larely perpetrated by people wiith "sport"working lines who are the self-appointed saviors of the breed. Why is it we never hear SL people criticizing WL dogs for their alleged work or for failing to conform to the breed standard.? Sport (or "point" dogs) may not have the temperament/drives to be street dogs. |
by Red Sable on 04 June 2010 - 17:30 |
| Your last sentence is true Louise, but, how can show people criticize WL folk, when they know WL folk are breeding for the working abilities, first and foremost? At least the majority are, however, if they do get caught up in the show line structure, than they will be heading down the same slippery slope. |
Red Sable by oso on 04 June 2010 - 17:49 |
| Why?? |
by Red Sable on 04 June 2010 - 17:57 |
| Because anytime you put one aspect of the GSD over another, you end up with the problems we have now. If WL dogs can do the work, you can pretty much assume they have the correct structure - not the latest fad. |
by VomMarischal on 04 June 2010 - 18:57 |
| Excuse me, Louise? Didn't I just read a post on a different thread about working lines dogs being aggressive towards people??? Certainly made ME feel defensive, because my dogs sure aren't. ADD: wow RS, good post. Short and smart. |
by Red Sable on 04 June 2010 - 19:56 |
Thanks VM,  |
by Rik on 04 June 2010 - 20:03 |
| Red Sable, while I understand and appreciate the reasoning behind your statement, I disagree that the only criteria for structure should be the ability to work. The GSD is suited for and called on to perform many kinds of work all over the world. The requirements for a seeing eye or service dog will be very different than those of a military sentry dog or LE. Who will define which type work the dog should be bred for. That is the purpose of the GSD standard, and correct structure is very well defined in the standard. Nothing need be assumed. A dog bred for correct structure will have the ability (physically) to perform in many different areas. The standard should define structure, not the individual traits/characteristics of the dog. Again, JMO, Rik |
by Red Sable on 04 June 2010 - 20:13 |
| I agree Rik, but the structure is the same to perform every job, right? The GSD is a versatile dog, however, the structure does not need to be versatile. - or different for each job. If it can do one it can do them all. The standard does define structure, unfortunately, people still change it to suit their whims, and that happens in the conformation ring. I don't think we will ever solve this, I just hope by education, the majority will see the light.  And you say, that my light may not be your light, and alas, that is where the problem lies.  |
by oso on 04 June 2010 - 21:08 |
| But if you look at them in movement, most WL do not have the correct structure to permit a really good ground-covering trot, limited front angulation does not permit a good reach for example. Most show line dogs are capable of doing the same work, their structure certainly does not prevent this (unless they are really over-angulated and cow-hocked, but that is a fault anyway, they should not be like that, and I think judges are beginning to penalise these faults more now), but they do not receive the same amount of training as WL dogs because of the different interests of the owners. I am not looking at SL with rose-coloured glasses. I know that there are issues to be resolved and I am aware that some SL breeders do not always reject puppies lacking in drive or temperament if these puppies happen to be outstanding in type and conformation, that is an obvious temptation with SL dogs. Having seen videos of the bite work of the VAs at the German sieger it does seem to me that the intensity shown by the dogs has declined over the last few years, on average. But in the end, responsible breeders are able to identify which dogs really do have good temperament. There are aspects that have been neglected on both sides, unfortunately. I mentioned this in another thread, but where I live there are not many WL dogs and most have been imported, the ones I have seen here are definitely no stronger in temperament than the average SL dog here, and there are few SL dogs that are much, much better. However, I have seen some really outstanding WL dogs on video of course, and I certainly do not think WL dogs are too aggressive or anything of that sort, I just also appreciate good structure, type and movement in a GSD and its a shame that there is the division when there should not be. |
by troublelinx on 04 June 2010 - 21:34 |
| MRK, I prefer working over show. With working line I have a better chance of getting what I am looking for. Which is stable, high drives, naturally protective (protection still needs to be trained). This is not to say that show lines are not good at protection. This just means I stack the odds better in my favor. Plus a good show line god is typically cost more than I care to pay. The best gsd I have seen so far working wise was a show line. A real freak of nature. But the question is will he reproduce his drives in his puppies? Even if you got 1/2 of his drives it would be more than enough. I have seen good show line as far as the work goes. That being said they are few and far apart. I Have seen lots of good working line. Most of the ones I have seen are great and probably what you are looking for. However you can still get a dud, I have. Not that the dog wasn't okay, but she was just okay. But still very naturally protective. In the case of this pup I researched and found a good breeder with good dogs. Litter mates were great, just not the one I got. In the end the breeder purchased the by now dog back from me for the original price (1st right of refusal). A real stand up guy. There are no guarantees with this you can only stack the odds better in your favor. One show-line breeder would hold back her choice pups. Her choice pups were based on looks and dimensions, not working ability. Working ability was a distant 3rd or 4th priority. Her choice pups were usually the ones that I would have dug a whole for in my back yard. Some I thought were totally useless and I did not understand why she kept them around. She may also take a pup like the one described and sell it as a total package dog. There are really good trainers out there that can doctor one of these dogs up and make them look good. That does not mean that they are actually good, but to the inexperienced they may look good. Especially if the person selling is a good sales person and knows what you need to hear. After more than a few generations you get your pup and you wonder why it is not the dog you thought it would be. HUM, I wonder why? Just my opinion based on what I have seen, don't take it for gospel. |
troublelinx by troublelinx on 04 June 2010 - 21:34 |
| MRK, I prefer working over show. With working line I have a better chance of getting what I am looking for. Which is stable, high drives, naturally protective (protection still needs to be trained). This is not to say that show lines are not good at protection. This just means I stack the odds better in my favor. Plus a good show line god is typically cost more than I care to pay. The best gsd I have seen so far working wise was a show line. A real freak of nature. But the question is will he reproduce his drives in his puppies? Even if you got 1/2 of his drives it would be more than enough. I have seen good show line as far as the work goes. That being said they are few and far apart. I Have seen lots of good working line. Most of the ones I have seen are great and probably what you are looking for. However you can still get a dud, I have. Not that the dog wasn't okay, but she was just okay. But still very naturally protective. In the case of this pup I researched and found a good breeder with good dogs. Litter mates were great, just not the one I got. In the end the breeder purchased the by now dog back from me for the original price (1st right of refusal). A real stand up guy. There are no guarantees with this you can only stack the odds better in your favor. One show-line breeder would hold back her choice pups. Her choice pups were based on looks and dimensions, not working ability. Working ability was a distant 3rd or 4th priority. Her choice pups were usually the ones that I would have dug a whole for in my back yard. Some I thought were totally useless and I did not understand why she kept them around. She may also take a pup like the one described and sell it as a total package dog. There are really good trainers out there that can doctor one of these dogs up and make them look good. That does not mean that they are actually good, but to the inexperienced they may look good. Especially if the person selling is a good sales person and knows what you need to hear. After more than a few generations you get your pup and you wonder why it is not the dog you thought it would be. HUM, I wonder why? Just my opinion based on what I have seen, don't take it for gospel. |
by troublelinx on 04 June 2010 - 22:04 |
| Oso, I respectfully disagree with one breed. Separate is better from my stand point. It would be different if there never was a division. Since one has been created a show line and working line crossed produces a mix of the two. I have not seen it produce a show looking dog with working ability. In fact just the opposite. Not a pretty sight. My honest thought is keep your show fluff out of my working line. See, while I may not be able to spell worth crap but I am passionate about the working strain. further more although this is a free country (USA) and you can breed what ever you choose it still effects me if the breed is watered down. There goes that passion that I have. Although I try to keep it at bay I am not always good at it, and I could say more it probably would not be good if I did and I would offend a lot of people. Trouble |
by troublelinx on 04 June 2010 - 22:05 |
| Oso, I respectfully disagree with one breed. Separate is better from my stand point. It would be different if there never was a division. Since one has been created a show line and working line crossed produces a mix of the two. I have not seen it produce a show looking dog with working ability. In fact just the opposite. Not a pretty sight. My honest thought is keep your show fluff out of my working line. See, while I may not be able to spell worth crap but I am passionate about the working strain. further more although this is a free country (USA) and you can breed what ever you choose it still effects me if the breed is watered down. There goes that passion that I have. Although I try to keep it at bay I am not always good at it. In addition I am not totally satified with some strains of the working lines. Some of these dogs hit the sleeve at 110 mph and I dont think they even see the person behind the sleeve. breeding only for super high prey drive is hurtful to the breed. However they look flashy. I am sure everything is in verying degrees or mabey the defense has not been tapped into. It just seems to me that some WL focus on the high prey drive and not the part that gives the gsd a certain edge without sacrificing confidence. I am guessing that last part may have gotten confusing, O well. Trouble |
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