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Flippant Comments by Fayrelander on 03 April 2010 - 10:21 |
| Firstly we don't profess to know Carol or her dog very well, but for her, unfortunately caught up in the controversy that surrounds our breed at present, having gained the title of BOB at Crufts and then to have the shine taken completely away by flippant comments must be soul destroying. This brings us to other comments made on these pages by you missbeeb, who in our opinion have put yourself firmly in the same slot as the Clare Balding's of the world, by passing rude and judgemental comments concerning Animals and people of which you know nothing about. I mean at the end of the day MISSBOOB sorry missbeeb, you couldn't even name the bitch that won CC and BOB under Gary Gray at WELKS 2008.so how can you have the knowledge to comment. To put the records straight her name is Champion Fayrelander Polly Flinders, who incidentally went on to win a further 3 CC's at the next three shows, two more best of breeds, and Group 2 at Three Counties, Making her Dog World/Pedigree Masterfoods Overall Top GSD 2008 .The very nice Ch Mirrwood Sciffo at Reyanheath shared the limelight with her on three of these occasions, handled by My husband to one of his tickets. We will certainly be entering Crufts next year, because, Win or loose We trust that Gary will put up the Best dog on the day, We might even see you there, if your ready for an honest days judging, or is it as we suspect you join the ranks of the other sore losers. By the way sorry to disappoint you but She is also three quarters Top quality German Breeding! |
by missbeeb on 03 April 2010 - 10:54 |
I'm neither disappointed nor interested, frankly! I thought his judging was appalling. I am not a sore loser, indeed, I was too wise to enter. I'm afraid I don't have the same platform as Clare Balding, but I am entitled to my opinion... and it stands. I didn't know the name of your bitch (why would I?) but my eyes were functioning very well. My we expect to see you at Regional events in the future, to show under specialist judges? |
missbeeb by Sue B on 03 April 2010 - 11:00 |
| My guess is that would be a resounding NO Missbeeb! Sad but true. Regards Sue b |
Sue B by noddi on 03 April 2010 - 12:23 |
| hi Carol and Kevin.now for the onslaught.MISBEEB AND SUE.these people DO HAVE ANIMALS THAT DO CONFORM TO THE STANDARD.Idont think that we should be slagging the people off who dont show these correct animals in the same way we do.they prefer ,as i do,not to be double handling so blatantly.we prefer a more sedately way of presenting our charges.IMO.its the over the top D.H.that has brought us where we are now.IMO.its the D.H.which makes some of our animals look unsound and have a distorted backline ,to the onlooker.even on the classified ads here on PDB,the backlines on some dogs DOES NOT LOOK RIGHT.if we weren,t in the situ.we,re in now,I WOULD BE EXHIBITING AT CRUFTS NEXT YEAR WITH CHIKI.in slagging off Gary Gray,who i haven,t bee under yet,yu also slagg off his wife,who awarded chiki with her 2nd CC,and mirrwood schifo(who won his class)and ASTANA BONO AT REYANHEATH,who was dog CC and BOB on the day.so in fact yu are slagging off all the winners of the day.Gary in my opinion will judge as he see fit on the day,he will put up dogs he considers to be sound whether they be to his liking or not.i think he did state this before his critiques in the b/c mag.when he judged 3 countries several years ago.come on now ,us germanics and middle of the roaders should be sticking together not fighting.maybe some of the middle of the road animals are not to our liking but they are using german type males to their females.we need their support too,in this fight with the kc.Carole Spelman. |
by Sue B on 03 April 2010 - 12:39 |
| Carole, where have I EVER slagged these people OFF, PLEASE SHOW ME!!!???? Best Regards Sue |
by Sue B on 03 April 2010 - 12:51 |
| Carole, Please read again my comment above, Missbeeb had asked if we would be seeing them at Regional Events under SV judges, my guess is that we wouldnt and please note I ended that with the comment, Sad but True. In other words I thought it sad that the likelihood is that they wouldnt be joining us at our WUSV events for Health & Character Checked animals having obtained a BC Survey Pass. As you know I dont advocate the mad DH either and my age (57) and spinal condition prevents me from doing many things that I would otherwise like to do (although madly running around the ring DH is not one of them), however I still manage to compete with those that do because I train my animals to seek me out, rather than run around following me, so saying they do not come to our events because we DH is not an excuse. Nor is it an excuse for not attending to put their dogs through a BC Survey or to attend a Regional Event or even the British Sieger Event , if only to obtain an SV Breed Grade (required under WUSV rules in order to gain a Korung as fit for breeding). So I will reiterate, I find it sad that these people will most likely not be joining us at our Regional events , though will be one of the first to greet with them with Open arms if they do. So please dont say I was slagging these people off or Gary Gray or his wife Gill because I wasnt and havent and as I am sure you know if I had I would have no hesitation in admitting it. Regard Sue |
by missbeeb on 03 April 2010 - 12:56 |
Carole, I believe I said something along the lines of, "each to his own", when this topic was last mentioned... I meant it. I can't imagine why you think my opinion of Gary's judging should rub off onto his wife! I have never seen her judge and it's not likely that I ever will. My honest opinion is, that his judging was appalling. The fact that he managed to pick out a couple of decent animals does not make it all ok, imo! If you are unable to check a dogs' dentition, it should not be placed 2nd... pretty basic stuff! Overweight, sway backed, windy animals with forward placed shoulders that are strung up under their ears... should they be placed? I don't think they should. Now... I did not resurrect this topic and I have apologised to the bitch CC owner for any offence caused. I have asked if we may expect to see them at our Regional events in the future, but as yet, I have had no reply. It's my firm belief that we should encourage everyone to attend our events and I sincerely hope that they will. |
by Doppelganger on 03 April 2010 - 13:40 |
| noddi wrote: "maybe some of the middle of the road animals are not to our liking" well maybe some of the Germanic dogs are not to the liking of those of us who consider ourselves middle of the road, but according to some on here we are the scum of the earth, Maybe its because we don't like some of them or how they are handled that you won't see us at the 'specialist' events. Maybe some of us (gasp) even like to handle our own dogs! |
by missbeeb on 03 April 2010 - 13:56 |
Doppelganger... are you a harbinger of bad luck, or a ghostly reflection / double as the name implies? I've never heard of anyone describe any faction as "the scum of the earth".
Rather than pre-judge, come along to our first one and see for yourself. If it's not to your liking... fair enough. |
by noddi on 03 April 2010 - 14:05 |
| Firstly Sue and Misbeeb,i apologise for going over the top.but on reading your comment back to Fayrelander i was somewot incensed.when one critises a judges placings without mentioning that a few specimens were of quality,one tends to have ones back put out of joint.if it had been Gill yu were critising i would have been serverly angry as has i,ve said before Chiki has been placed under all sorts of judges,except an out and out alsatian one.she was even placed 2nd under Clare Coxall who i thought would not appreciate her.i think we all need to think a bit more before we gaily put our thoughts and views for all to see.SUE i would think knows my bitch,so know doubt can give a critique on how SHE sees her.Dopplegander,yes i agree i too(who is on the german side)that the shape of some german type dogs ARE NOT TO MY LIKING EITHER.i also prefer the way of handling by the middle of the road type to all this frantic pulling and racing we see some doing at german type shows and believe it or not,some of the judges DONT LIKE IT EITHER.Carole S.ps i do believe that Fayrelander have entered a few of our shows and would suspect that they may have attended a sieger show.maybe they are intending to visit one of our regional shows.just wait and see eh. |
by smarticus on 03 April 2010 - 14:40 |
| Fayrelander Polly Flinders HD 10-10 = 20 Dam -Fayrelander Hootin Annie HD 13-17 total 30!! tut tut there is a flippant comment for you. |
by Doppelganger on 03 April 2010 - 14:52 |
| So they have improved on the mothers score in the next generation. Isn't that what we all aim for? |
by Sue B on 03 April 2010 - 14:57 |
| Carole, I still do not see why my comments back to fayrelander should have incensed you , since all I said was that sadly I doubted we would see them entering Regional Events. I know people use the term Middle of the Road, but personally I do not agree with the term, what exactly is it supposed to mean?? A Shepherd is either CORRECT OR INCORRECT in type, how can anything possible be in the MIDDLE?? What is that supposed to imply? It is nearly correct ? Arguably, since I am the breeder of Ch. Kassieger Zar , as well as breeder of his dam, his granddam & grt granddam etc who was exhibited and made up on what is termed 'the middle of the road', it is conceivable that I could term myself as a breeder of Middle of the Road type, however Zar, like everything else I have bred is based on the German International Type, which I consider the correct type, so obviously the judges he won under and who liked him would / should automatically like anything else I bred and liked. This is confirmed by the fact that I exhibited Kassieger Blitzen under some of the same judges as Anne and Mel put Kassieger Zar and both dogs recieved good / similar placings. I have also won a Res CC with my Imported female Ch. Daira (who also gained VA1 under the SV judge at the British Sieger) under this years Crufts judge Bob Kinsey when he judged at Blackpool in 2007, also interesting to note that he is the one who steered Ch Zar to his title under these apparently called Middle of the road judges. The only thing this has ever proved to me is that there actually is no such thing as a Middle of the Road Shepherd but are just an extension of the German type Shepherds we all exhibit at the majority of our Specialist German Breed Shows. Obviously, some are not as firm and dry as others, some carry more weight than we would necessarily like to see, but all in all the type is the same. So bearing this in mind, why would I ever insult the owners or exhibitors of these type of Shepherds? Indeed I have the greatest respect for others who also frequent and judge the so called middle of the road type shows, people such as Carol Marsden, Malcolm Robinson , Bob Kinsey to name but a few are all very lovely people in my opinion, people I like and have much time for. Indeed a bitch I bred also gained a Res CC at Crufts under Ian Blackshaw so why on earth would I be critical of these so called Middle of the road types? The fact is I have not critised them or said anything bad about them at all, so please refrain from making comments that suggest I have. Considering what I have told you above, one could say my GSD;s do as well under the Middle of road judges as they do under the German SV judges and to me that speaks volumes and proves beyond doubt there is no such thing as Middle of the road as they are actually German type dogs with more often than not highly influenced by German bred dogs in their pedigree;s. Regards Sue |
by smarticus on 03 April 2010 - 14:59 |
| well that was a risk responsible breeders wouldn't have taken IMO |
by Doppelganger on 03 April 2010 - 15:24 |
| I agree totally Sue, and I think its is the exaggerated type of Germanic dog that is incorrect, i.e. the roach backs and weak hocks that are being criticised by people in other breeds but still promoted by the 'extreme' judges which is why those of us who like what we consider the 'correct type would not enter under them. My worry is that with the proliferation of shows with those people showing and judging means that my idea of a correct type will be seen less and less at breed shows and be relegated to the remaining KC shows under all rounders and breed specialists (usually those who have worked their way up in this country). Which is why I asked the question on the other thread 'who are the bad breeders' who are producing these roach backed weak hocked dogs that are still being placed? |
by GSDUK on 03 April 2010 - 15:25 |
| Sue B Might I ask a question? You said "I know people use the term Middle of the Road, but personally I do not agree with the term, what exactly is it supposed to mean?? A Shepherd is either CORRECT OR INCORRECT in type, how can anything possible be in the MIDDLE?? What is that supposed to imply? It is nearly correct ?" Here is my question.... Could the term Middle of the Road indicate a GSD that is free from exaggeration of the kind that some people find undesireable in either the German/International type OR to use the phrase that the people on here prefer the Alsation type? I once sent an email to someone that posts quite a lot on here (not your good self), that contained 3 pictures which had been converted so that the particular dogs could not be identified and only the outline of the dogs was visible. The text of my email asked." Drawing 1 is what you call a GSD, drawing 3 is what you call an Alsation. What would you call drawing 2 then?" Drawing 2 contained the outline of a dog which had no exaggeration at all. I did not get a reply.....I presumed there was no answer. Do you follow what I am saying? Makes sense to me but I wrote it...hehnehehe Best Regards Dave |
by noddi on 03 April 2010 - 16:02 |
| Sue,i wasnt having a go at anyone on my 1st post to this thread,really i wasnt.THE WE referred to was a loosely general term.i,m very sorry if ive upset yu.didnt mean it.my thinking of the term middle of the road in years gone by was an animal which was of both german and english lines as my 1st bitch..sire all german.dam..1 full line stranmillis(sire line)not to sure re bottom dam line(mixture i suppose)now i would term middle of the road as an animal correct to the standard,without any exageration,but which is shown the old fashioned way,by that i mean not overtly pulling hard into the lead and being raced around the ring at 100mph.for hours on end with all the owners /helpers running like looneys on the outside of the ring.yes i would class Zar as M.O.R.in this respect BUT OF CORRECT TYPE.hope i,m making myself more clearer.aint too good at expressing myself on paper,better when face to face.i,ve never thought that your animals have been anything but correct.like yu Chiki has been placed under judges from Germany,the continent,wot one would have classed english when i first started(those yu have stated in this post)and all rounders,even one who i suspected preferred the alsatian SMARTICUS......if F.Polly Flinders had been breed surveyed a couple of years ago she would have received a class 1 for hips(recommended for breeding)her dam Hootin Annie would have rec,d a class 2(suitable for breeding).now at this present time F.Polly Flinders wouls still get a pass for hips but not her mother.i personally think that it can be a hit or miss with hip scores especially if 1 has big litters.even 2 low scoring animals with low scores throughout the pedigree can throw some progeny with high hips.just nature being a B.........?.Carole S. |
by Sue B on 03 April 2010 - 16:23 |
| GSDUK - Dave, In answere to your question, "Could the term Middle of the Road indicate a GSD that is free from exaggeration...etc" IMO No it couldnt because the true / correct German International type does not have the exaggerations you speak of and if they do they are few and far between and are incorrect and are not promoted. I know back in the late 70's early 80's the term Middle of the Road started and actually I remember both breeder Nelle Wright and myself refering to my Jacnel bred male sired by German import Condor Arminius out of Jacnel Dallas as middle of the road type, this was because at the time some wrongly believed the German type to be thin and of shorter proportions. Of course this a misconception of those whose eyes could not differenciate between the overlong, overweight, short legged and soft dippy backed Alsatian types, from the Correctly proportioned German type dogs of correct weight and firm back. I remember many an affix with very short coupled dogs, that had a distinc arch and which were kept very lean in order to look firm. So I suppose the term Middle of the Road arose at that time for us exhibiting the Correct German International type to distance ourselves from those who proclaimed to have German Types but which actually were not . It took a while but soon peoples eyes started to adjust properly and eventually the thinty kept, roach back dogs started to dissapear from our German type show rings because they simply were not winning anything. You have to admit even the Alsatians have two distinc types, those with overlong dippy backs and those with short legs that are just overlong!! So too will some of our Germanic type be slightly shorter than we would want and therefore sometimes stand with a slightly raised loin which in turn can emphasise a peak in the back that actually, isnt necessarily there at all when the dog is left to stand around unposed and mogging around. I admit some owners and handlers on the Germanic side are their own worse enemy when it comes to standing their dogs and possibly I too could be found guilty of this on some occasions over the years, even though I can assure you I have never bred nor owned a roach back in my life. To give you an example of how ludicrous this senario of roach back name calling actual existed , when I tell you that when my own own Ch Jacnel Nacale won BOB at Manchester Ch show under decision of referee Vera Hutchinson in 1987 some exhibitors there called her a roach back, which she never, ever exhibited. The owner of the dogs CC winner was to Len Rathjen who came over to me on the day to congratulate me and say how much he liked Nacale. From that day on we became very good friends and some years later I was invited to judge Southern GSD Breed Show of which he and his wife had run for many years. contineued below |
by Fayrelander on 03 April 2010 - 19:40 |
| I have been watching with interest at your comments all day, Wow how soon things spiral away from the original point, which was that you cannot on the one hand condemn someone for making hurtful comments, then cheerily go about doing the same--as it is offensive--and we accept your apology for that. Who mentioned middle of the road anyway ? It seems to be a label we've been stuck with, as is Germanic or Alsatian. We just love our dogs--as you do, Think they are correct--as you do, and they please us when we look at them-as yours do. As for showing at your regional shows, been there, done that-No Thanks.However wouldn't mind having a breed survey if you could suggest an assessor who liked our type..No didn't think so. Anyway why would a breed specialist judge need a piece of paper signed by someone else to know if my dog was good enough.Plus it's not a necessity in ENGLAND. We've been members of the SV and committee members to a GSD League branch, and exhibited at these shows before, like you Sue we have trained our dogs to look for us, but that doesn't stop others from running around like things possessed. and I'm afraid its that we don't enjoy, Although We appreciate that others do. During this time We have been stewards at these shows and rubbed shoulders with the likes of Margit Van Dorssen, a breed specialist-you'd agree, Who thought that this behaviour was a farce and totally not necessary, In fact in one class even though she had set her mind on her winners, she allowed the exhibitors to run around for several laps, saying if that's what they like let them do it, We had a good giggle about that, How stupid did they look, almost bursting a blood vessel to move their dogs up one place, even though this wasn't going to happen.It was at this same show when a K.C. Official turned up and threatened to stop the show, all because one exhibitor would not heed to warnings, and almost lost the club their license. Not for us I'm afraid. Now To You Smarticus (Smart arse) We can all do a little digging and muck spreading, come out from behind your sudo name and I bet if we did enough of it we would find your not so pearly white.People in glass houses and all that!! Yes we may have taken a risk but it was a calculated one, which we were able to do due to the transparency of the BVA hip score scheme, I mean A Stamp Normal, A Fast Normal?? perhaps you can enlighten us as to the actual scores these would mean as We can't find any clear definitions. Anyway she was classed as fit for breeding, A 35 being the cut off for a bitch. Results so far have shown a marked improvement with every generation, and I'm glad to say that both F Polly Finders aged 8 and her Mother F Hootin Annie aged 11 are still enjoying life and running around the paddock with no signs of HD. We have no gripe with the different types, as missbeeb says each to their own. If indeed you do break away from the K.C. and do your own thing, Good luck to you all, happy showing, but mostly enjoy your dogs. However We still have a suspicion that not all but some of you yes people will want the best of both worlds. And still a few of the chancers will creep back over to the K.C. run shows just to obtain your tickets.Now there's loyalty for you. Kevin & Carol |
by noddi on 03 April 2010 - 20:04 |
| Sorry Carol,Kevin.it was me at the bottom of my 1st post on here.i used it for want of a better word ,but yu have described wot i was trying to say much more eloquently and with more punch that i did.i knew that yu had shown and had been to some of the germanic type shows in the past.malc and karen and chris attended Essex show and didnt think that much of the german style of showing.must admit i enjoy a bit of it but not all the running around like looneys.never been that keen really but put up with it.probally see yu at some of the shows.at least for this year anyway.dont know about next year.will probably retire Chiki apart from a few veteran classes.good luck anyway Carole. |
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