German Shepherd Dog > BIG heads, super dark sables, super hips. That is the problem (161 replies)
by leeshideaway on 24 February 2010 - 07:45
|Here is an interesting point relating to Pragers hips statement. |
Yago von der Belferlein (zw67) and Kway om Posthorn (zw67) are both sons of Asko von der Lutter. (V BSP & WUSV)
Look back a few generations in the father line at Olf (noch zugelassen) & Anka (fast normal) also Benny and Roma.
If those dogs were never bred some good producers of today would not be here.
(not to mention Jeck vom Noricum and many others)
by GSDtravels on 24 February 2010 - 12:00
|As far as big heads go, masculine heads on females have been discussed a number of times, proudly. I've been confused by some of the posts as many have been happy with this type of head on their females and breed for it. Some of these are the same who will be the first to tell someone else that they should breed to the standard. I was always understood that the female should have a distinctly feminine appearance and you should be able to tell just from looking at their face, if they're male or female. I understand, same as anyting else, that there will be exceptions, but why breed bitches with doggie heads to carry on a trait that is not to standard? I will add that I would rather see a masculine head on a female than a feminine head on a male, but neither should be acceptable as a desirable trait. If you like a male head, get a male. Please correct me if I'm wrong.|
by Sunsilver on 24 February 2010 - 14:28
|GSDt, if you stick around long enough, and watch this breed and others, you'll soon learn the latest fad in the breed ring will trump the standard every time. That's how we got the roach back, and American line dogs that trot on their hocks and have really effeminante, snipey heads!|
Sometimes the standard will be altered to more closely match the dogs that are getting the ribbons. For instance, until not too long ago, the American standard called for a LEVEL back!! Not a STRAIGHT back, a level back!
There probably hasn't been a level-backed GSD in the American show ring since the late 1960s!
by JakodaCD OA on 24 February 2010 - 14:35
|I don't go with dogs for color, but I've been blessed with some lovely ones |
This is Dodge who passed away a year ago:((((
And this is my new girl who just happens to be sable, her brains are what count tho:)))
by JakodaCD OA on 24 February 2010 - 14:36
|Ok, I guess I did something wrong, sorry to waste space:(((|
by gagsd4 on 24 February 2010 - 14:57
|Here you go.......|
Diane's New Girl.....
and Dodge (for Diane)
Interesting that quite a few of the dogs with very nice (but not too big) heads posted here are related.
by Sunsilver on 24 February 2010 - 15:15
|Jakoda, what Mary did was copy the URL of your picture (the section between [IMG] and [/IMG] ) then click on the mountain and sun icon in the taskbar above the 'Post Reply' box. She then pasted the URL in the box that pops up. |
That's the easy was to post a picture here. You can also post one off your hard drive, but that's more complicated.
Very nice looking dogs, with good, dark pigment!
by GSDtravels on 24 February 2010 - 15:19
|gagsd4, she's beautiful and the head is distinctly feminie! Very nice, congrats.|
by crhuerta on 24 February 2010 - 15:28
|OK......I'm probably going to be executed for this...but here's my personal preference.|
I love the black sable color. I love the black colored dogs AND a rich bi-color as well. I also love black & red dogs.
(All above colors mentioned are only my preference in color).....nothing more.
I love strong head pieces, strong bone & substance & strong health genetics.....and to wrap it all up in a perfect package....STRONG CHARACTER.
If I have to spend the rest of my life, with that "goal" in mind.......so be it.
To buy any dog for any ONE specific trait....color, head piece, structure, health...etc......is being "blind".
We all have a "preference" in type...nothing wrong with that....but it should never be the absolute deciding factor in breeding.......One's "preference" may not always be what's correct. We argue that same topic continuously on this board.
by gagsd4 on 24 February 2010 - 15:45
|GSDtravels-- the two posted directly above are not mine.... just posted for someone else.|
These are mine, 3 litter brothers. Photos between 6 and 8 months old....
by GSDtravels on 24 February 2010 - 15:46
|evab, in the box where you type your reply, above is a little yellow icon with a mountain and moon. Click it and you can then either upload a pic from your computer or go to a photo sharing website (such as photobucket) and copy the dircect link. Paste that link into the URL box, go to "width" and type 640 (this is what I use, you could go down to 500) and the rest will fill in. If you have any problems, let me know.|
Once the photo is on the screen, please enter once or twice before adding another (if you're posting more than one) so they stack below. Otherwise, they will go sideways and screw up the thread.
by Silbersee on 24 February 2010 - 15:47
as usual I agree with you 100%. I have the same preferences and could not stand dogs (male or female) with a narrow muzzled head. A female needs to have a strong head. Sometimes people mistake a strong head for being masculine though. It might be a matter of interpretation. For me, a lot of Czech and East German dogs have beautiful heads. German showlines in general have good heads too but sometimes males tend to be too short muzzled and boxy (for lack of a better definition), almost like a Rottweiler. German workinglines are completely mixed. Some have strong heads but you will also find weaker ones here. Noses too long, weak underjaw etc. American lines in my opinion do not have ideal heads. And before I get crucified: I am sure there are exceptions to the rule and maybe even a distinction between different lines but I do not know them and I go by what I see at shows or photos.
Yes, we do argue about preferences quite often and there is nothing wrong with having them.
by ziegenfarm on 24 February 2010 - 16:11
|i have a question:|
has there ever been any information circulated in relation to the shape of the head/muzzle and the bite? in other breeds, you find shorter muzzles with a preponderance of underbites. crok had one of the ugliest heads you could ever find on a dog, yet he was known for his tremendous grip and for passing on that grip. and what about character? has anyone made any observations about the size or shape of the head and how it relates to the dog's abilities? i'm just wondering if the size/shape of the head and coat color preference may have had its root in breeding for specific working traits. then, ofcourse, someone grabbed the ball and ran with it; making those traits more important than others.
by gagsd4 on 24 February 2010 - 16:19
Held Ritterberg had a very strong head and was a dark dog, and I think most would agree an execellent "worker." (saying this based on plenty of research, I never met him.
Particularly when one does not have a lot of experience to know what strong character is. It is much easier to distinguish a big head and dark color than super temperament.
by GSDtravels on 24 February 2010 - 16:44
|gagsd, all three very nice, I like the markings on the third. I'm partial to blacks, have had two. I also had a dark sable but he was coated and although gorgeous, the look is just not the same as the stock coat. I like them all! But, anyway, the bitch you posted is very nice, yours or not. Thanks for sharing.|
by charlie319 on 24 February 2010 - 18:53
|Very nice dogs on this thread. I've always made it a point when acquiring a dog to gauge its temperament as the basis for my decision. Color (regaless of preference) is nice, but it should not be a major factor in the decision. I don't breed, but if and when I do, I would not focus on the few traits and opt to breed a better overall animal.|
My current dog, Ares, has great pigmentation and is a blend of west german showlines and working lines. He's got low ball drive and works off "distrust and suspicion". When you play tug with him, you can tell it is a game to him, however, he "gets on the clock" instantly if he perceives a threat. Otherwise, he seems to feel as if he's above his surroundings. Here's a pic of him last November:
My question is, since the Martin Brothers, and others, made the genetic pool smaller and shallower, what if anything can breeders do to overturn such a situation to improve future generations' genetic diversity within the breed and it's standards without inviting yet more unintended deleterious effects upon the breed?
by KKR_Gsd02 on 24 February 2010 - 19:26
|my boy when he was 11 mo old|
by Justk9s on 24 February 2010 - 20:28
|I LOVE black Sables. But a sable is a sable. I also love Blacks, Bi colors, Black and reds. Some people like Livers and blues. I currently have 2 sables (one is a black sable), I have one solid black and a black and red. I also do not feel a GS dog must do Schutzhund to be a good dog. Mine do what they do and I love them each for it. |
IMO there is no bad dog. In my opinion it may be an ugly Peice of S***. But that is all it is, MY OPINION. And I try not to be rude and make nasty comments about dogs that people love. My Mother raised me better than that.
I do agree that black sable is a selling factor right now, and most advertised are not really black sables. But that is also MY OPINION.
by JakodaCD OA on 24 February 2010 - 23:59
|thank you Mary for posting the pics and thank you sunsilver for explaining how to post a pic:) I'll have to try it out..|
Masi is 1/2 sister to Mary's dogs, they have the same father in common:)))
I admit I am always drawn to a nice dark dog,but don't intentionally go for color. (I have 5 black cats as well!)
Everyone has posted absolutely stunning dogs:))
by Silbersee on 25 February 2010 - 02:47
|Hans is probably sitting back and shaking his head what has become of his thread!!|
Here is my youngest sweetheart. She will be 6 weeks old tomorrow and so far, I like her a lot and might just keep her. She is not a black sable though! But I love her personality and typey feminine head (at least it is clear to me that she is a female). Photo was taken at 4 weeks of age. She is three quarters German workinglines and 1 quarter Czech.