German Shepherd Dog > Lornaville Alsatians (154 replies)
by peterlee on 16 February 2010 - 15:38
|Look at these two web pages. They are from Lornaville Alsatians.|
Here is the first one
'He (Ray Brandon) is a Kennel Club assessor for first time CC judges. He judges all breeds at Open Show level and is on various Club lists for other Working/Pastoral breeds.'
Here is the second one
'This page highlights the breed Champions produced by the Lornaville kennel.'
by AmbiiGSD on 16 February 2010 - 15:52
|Doesn't warrant a comment really....|
by bazza on 16 February 2010 - 17:17
|To gob smacked at the moment to make any comments!!!!|
by crossingate on 16 February 2010 - 17:43
|This is why we have so many issues with the Kennel Club in Great Britain - what more can I say???|
by noddi on 16 February 2010 - 17:52
|totally agree with ambii,bazza and crossingate.all i can say is HEAVEN HELP US..now the truth is coming out.THE KC IS OUT TO GET THE CORRECT TYPE FRATERNITY OUT OF THE KC.THEY ONLY WANT THE ALSATIANIST TYPES.THE ONES WHO MOSTLY DONT HEALTH TEST ,BREED FROM KNOWN EPILEPTIC LINES AND MAY I ADD ALSO HAVE BRED SIRE TO DAUGHTER/SON TO MOTHER.|
by Jeevs on 16 February 2010 - 20:33
|KC Assessors are selected on the number of times a judge has awarded CC's, not by some 'old boys network' or because of which 'type' they prefer.|
by Liebe on 16 February 2010 - 21:08
|An assessor only assess the judge and the manner and processes they undertake in the ring. The assessor cannot comment on what is placed and where, criticism can only be made on the way the judge behaves. If the judge chooses to pick dogs with overshot jaws, 3 legs or even sky blue and pink with purple spots the assessor is not allowed to comment. Only conduct and procedure are under scrutiny.|
I understand this as in my other breed a Judge was under assessment on her first day giving CCs and many people commented on her choice of dogs, and the fact that she was under this assessment process. It was then explained to us that selection of dogs is a personal choice/opinion and not one to be questioned by the assessor. Had the judge missed, say the individual movement out or not gone over the dogs individually whilst under assessment then the assessor would have been required to speak out.
Just because R Brandon prefers one type, it should not affect his ability to assess a new judge, however should a Germanic judge choose to give a verbal critique whilst under assessment then it could be brought to question as this is not part of the KC's general judging process. I don't agree with this, I rather like verbal critiques however this is how the KC like things to be done.
by Jeevs on 16 February 2010 - 21:25
|I assess/evaluate judges in my other breed, and one of the questions we have to answer is whether from the placings we consider the judge demonstrates a sufficient knowledge of the breed standard (provided there are enough dogs of sufficient quality entered to allow them to make decisions).|
by Liebe on 16 February 2010 - 22:03
|Jeeves - there is a dog under genetic investigation in my other breed (its being questioned as to whether it is a cross breed) and it was placed over other dogs, and when the assessor was questioned (and the KC) the reply was from both that it was personal opinion!|
by Sue B on 16 February 2010 - 22:35
|Aha but what you are now overlooking is that with the new KC directive/ undertaking the Judges who promote unsoundness in the hindquarters and the hocks are to be reported by the Breed clubs. Just who exactly on the Breed Club is supposed to do the reporting and assessing they fail to tell you, could be some committee member who has never judged a dog in their life deciding if the judge is assessing soundness correctly or not. Makes a mockery of the whole situation to me. How a Breed club is supposed to stop judges awarding top placings to a dog someone on that committee believes is unsound is beyond me. What are the committee supposed to do, all get in a scrum huddle to debate the issue as to whether the judge has promoted an unsound dog or not? What if only one member of the committee saw the dog going away because everybody else on the committee were just getting on with the job of running the show, this committee member is not a judge so they run to another committee member who is, is this 2nd committee member then supposed to go to the ring and ask the dog to walk away and back again so that they too can assess its soundness. How crazy is all this sounding to the rest of you, because its beyond comprehension to me, yet this is what the KC want your club committee;s to sign up to.|
So who exactly will be judging the judges in future, the KC assessors, the club committee;s, the exhibitors, Jemima PDE or even Bill Hardaways taxi driver, in other words Uncle Tom Cobbly and all. Then remember Secretary;s at the end of every year you will have to write a Report to submit to the KC confirming and demonstrating compliance with these conditions to include reports on any required enforcement of Regulations F(1) 17h. Not forgetting of course that quote "Any evidence and reports of non compliance will be relevant factors when considering the Club's next CC allocation. So better hope non of your exhibitors / committee members from other clubs / KC assessors / other KC approved judges, oh yeh and did I mention Bill hardaways Taxi driver, does not send a conflicting report in to the Kennel Club, or you might be joining those clubs that didnt sign sooner than you may otherwise have anticipated.
by linedancer 13 on 16 February 2010 - 23:46
|Please don't think all us so called Alsationists are happy with him either.|
by arbeiter on 16 February 2010 - 23:58
|Surely those lornaville dogs are NOTHING to do with German Shepherd dogs ?|
Wonder why the KC. are not looking at health tests for Alsations, and we know they are not because how come so many are registered ?
Dogs dragging their bums along the ground in shires of University land ( work it out ) should never have a KC registration.
by noddi on 17 February 2010 - 09:05
|oh i also failed to point out in my last post how he words the title for this breed.......CORRECT TITLE......GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS.............Title for KC.....German Shepherd Dog(Alsatian)...........TITLE AS SEEN BY ROY BRANDON........ALSATIAN(GSD)......Does that not show it all.And yes LINEDANCER ....i do not class all alsatianists/english exhibitors with the same brush.i do acknowledge that some of you are now having your animals scored etc.and i do think that some of your animals are not as bad as years gone by(have been in show scene since 1987)as a matter of fact my 1st bitch was half german(sire line) and half english(dam line)(sire line all Stranmillis).fortunately for me,she took after he fathers line and i went down the correct path(IMO)there is 1 english champion bitch that i could live with and i have told her owners my opinion s of her.i am a lady with her own mind and if i like an animal i will say so and im not the only one of the german persusion that thinks she,s not too bad a specimen.i just wonder where you on the alsatianist side are going to go with your breeding programes as more and more english to middle of the road exhibitors are using germanic type dogs???|
by peterlee on 17 February 2010 - 09:35
|In his recent reply to the Kennel Club Dr Malcolm Willis said:-|
‘It is perhaps true to say that many all rounder judges do not support the correct type of German Shepherd Dog. Why not, when it is recognised universally? This country is out of step and considered the “poor relation” with the rest of the GSD world and the KC is doing nothing to get us back into step. The “Alsatian” which is recognized here and virtually no where else, appears to be supported and lauded by the Kennel Club. If our governing body really wanted to help the GSD breed advance, they would penalize this type of dog.… The existence of two types of GSD is brought about by the Kennel Club permitting judges to award CCs when they should not even be judging the breed at all.’
Do people want the Kennel Club CC system or do they want German Shepherd Dogs judged by WUSV rules? Is anyone prepared to defend the Kennel Club CC system?
by Mackenzie on 17 February 2010 - 10:02
|I found that a reference here to “middle of the road” which also appears on many other threads as a complete nonsense. There are in practise only two types of GSD and they are the correct type and the incorrect type. The people who are “middle of the road” produce and refer to their production in this way are incorrect. In my opinion this section of the GSD fraternity need to sit down and think carefully about what they are doing and saying and then determine which way they need to go in the best interests of the breed. All of Lornaville Alsatians as pictured on the web address given earlier are incorrect and are not to the breed standard. Further, their breeding carry lines with epilepsy.|
I think that it would be better for the breeder to get out of dogs all together if this is the best he can do.
by linedancer 13 on 17 February 2010 - 10:13
|Well i own and am in partnership with our beautiful CH Linsdown Georgiashe was the only" English type " for a better word made up in 2009 her Hip Score is 4/7 eyes clear i'm sure you will know she was sired by my late wonderful AMCH Alkarah's all American with Strco|
who passed away suddenly a year ago this month with Liver Cancer, her dam is Linsdown Whisper all English bred.
Although i do like some of the German bred dogs i really do not know enough about their lines ,i have a Chip daughter in the US at the moment who is doing well in the show ring so when she is done and got her title she will be mated to an AMCH and the i will bring her back to the UK in whelp.
by bazza on 17 February 2010 - 10:20
|Have to agree with Mackenzie, "middle of the road" to me means Can't let go of the past( alsastian) but can't grasp the present( correct international type). Agree there is no middle of the road, only correct or incorrect, end of story. The dogs and breeder mentioned surely can't think they are breed standard, no way. I just cannot fathom their way of thinking.|
by AmbiiGSD on 17 February 2010 - 10:38
|/me is Middle of the road....|
And no that doesn't mean Type or bloodlines or any other label !
That means looking for the all-round working dog with correct balanced conformation, that allows it to do the job it was bred to do.
Not a beauty show and not an extreme sport dog.
The middle = somewhere inbetween!
Gotta love those sweeping generalisations huh?
by petowner on 17 February 2010 - 10:41
|Mackenzie I agree that particular person should not be breeding dogs, he has caused much grief with his inbreeding on epileptic lines. There is also epileptic lines within the German bred dogs as you know so both sides have that fault. The incorrect type and the correct type ?. I am seeing two extremes of different types that look like different breeds which you are referring to as the correct and incorrect types. I then see dogs that are very pleasing to the eye that do not lean towards either extreme, these are the dogs I would consider to be of the correct type so I would be describing these as middle of the road dogs. Unfortunately there are breeders who use the term middle of the road as a description for their own dogs when they are clearly poor specimens that do not fall into any type catagorie. Simon.|
by noddi on 17 February 2010 - 10:50
|mackenzie and bazza.agree with you both that there is only correct or incorrect type BUT there is a fraction of exhibitors who prefer to call their animals middle of the road and i am one of them.my animals including my foundation bitch are and were correct to the standard.i call my animals middle of the road as they have no exagerations wot so ever.iIMO ,I THINK IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE WAY THEY HANDLE THEIR DOGS AS OPPOSED TO TYPE..they tend to attend shows under all rounders that judge to the correct type and judges who prefer the dogs to be shown in a calm and collected manner without all the frantic pulling into the collars and the digging in ,which IMO,distorts the topline and causes otherwise sound animals to appear unsound.maybe if the german side(and yes i do attend german breed champ.shows with my bitch when i can get there,which for the past few years has been difficult due to my hubbies health) did not go overboard on this issue we wouldnt be in the situation we are in today.my present show bitch is sitting on 2 CC .......1 won under a german type breed judge and 1 won under a middle of road type judge.she has won and been placed at general and breed club champ.shows under international judges,judges from germany,judges from the uk(german side)and (middle of road)and all rounder,so as you see basically she appeals to most judges.wouldnt expect her to be placed under alsatianist judgesBut havent tried that one.WHO KNOWS ,MAYBE.linedancer...georgia is the bitch i could live with and i told Suzie this when i met her at derbyshire champ show last year.no doubt i will get slated by my germanic side exhibitors for my comment about the handling issue but that is my opinion.|