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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > CANTO QUANTO MIX - Legendary History of the GSD Breed (69 replies)
CANTO QUANTO MIX - Legendary History of the GSD Breed by Preston on 16 February 2010 - 03:17 |
| Where doest extreme sidegait in GSDs come from? Answer: Germany, from the Canto Wienerau phenotype. Walter Martin knew how the Canto type bred too close would produce a lighter boned dog that could move exceptionally well (he also knew this phenotype could exist in other lines too). Canto turned out to be a dominant producer for sidegait, but he himself had a techiocally incorrect front and produced it. Even though it was incorrect technically, this type of front could produce extreme front extension because of a long upper arm to close to the vertical and a scapula to near the horizontal. This faulty appearance led Walter Martin to almost always mix the Canto Line with the Quanto line. The Canto-Quanto cross proved to be a potent combination for deep quality, great conformation and good movement, as well as good working temeperament. Quanto was known for proper front layback, very good prosturnum (unlike Canto), heavy bone, substantial secondary sex characteristics (unlike Canto) and rock solid temperament, plus extreme power along with great fight drive and working ability. American Shepherds have tended to be linebred selecting and stabilizing genes which appear like the Canto phenotype with all the snipeyness, shallow prosturnums, incorrect angulation, too much length, etc. Take a look at Canto's father and see what many American GSDs are like today in phenotype. Sad thing is most American AKC GSD showring enthusiasts do not have a clue about any of this. Canto's father Hein Konigsbruch (same type as many of your top American Shepherd show dogs: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/146.html Video clip of VA 1 Dingo vom Haus Gero moving is listed below from youtube. This is what the Canto type is in West German showline breeding (he was a Canto grandson). He had correct and extreme sidegait. The only small problem (really small) is the slight rotation of the hocks at full rear extension. Very few GSDs ever open up in the rear like this. Dingo's front angulation, setback, layback and prosturnum are incorrect, but all contribute to free easy front extension and good sidegait. Thus his front appeared unattractive to the standard, but provided very far reach, low to the ground also. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/39.html Dingo moving: Believed my many top German breeders to be ideal GSD movement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0 Here is a photo and pedigree of the famous Quanto Wienerau, a truly great GSD in every way: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/77.html Here is Quanto's progeny page: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny_pictures/77.html Especially praiseworthy were Quanto's three male offspring, Lasso de Val Sole (a super hard dog), Lex de Val Sole (perfect proportions), and Dick Adeloga: Lasso http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/ |
by Preston on 16 February 2010 - 03:28 |
| Continued): Lex http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1744.html Dick http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/176.html Here is Dingo's photo and pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/39.html He was the grandson of Canto Wienerau and was slightly steep in the croup which caused a slight flipping of his rear hocks when in full extension. His rear drive was exceptionally powerful in spite of this. Here is Canto Wienerau's photo and pedigree. He was a hemophiliac, but outmoved anything else and was used by Walter Martin for that reason: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/141.html Here is Canto's progeny page: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny_pictures/141.html Here is a Canto son Asslan Klamme, who went select at the GSDCA show in Miami one year, where I saw him. Many liked him, I though he was a joke. He appeared to have almost no neck but did reach okay in front. And he had a plush coat. A credible shepherd person saw him being colored by a now deceased crooked handler which made him appear red and black (they now test for dye in German shows since there was so much cheating like this going on. He had the typical Canto style pushed forward front with long but too steep upper arm, and a short scapula angled too near the horizontal, and a shallow prosturnum. His ear set was pretty good however. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/409341.html So here is the GSD breeder's dilemma: breed too much for sidegait and you end up with the Canto phenotype, which can produce lack of pigment, poor vitality and health and temperament problems. Breed too much for substance, male type, masculine head, heavy bone, great prosturnum and proper front angulation and layback and you may get too much of the Quanto phenotype, a heavy set powwerful dog that has less sidegait and less agility but great pigment and real beauty but strong temperament nonetheless. Breed for working temperament and Sch winning and you end up with GSDs that are too long, with lack of male type and substance and shallow fronts, poor movement and increased agility. The trick is to know how to breed a proper balance of all three considerations, movement, type and temperament. |
by Gustav on 16 February 2010 - 04:05 |
| I agree with most of what you said Preston. I saw Asslan also, and though he did move well he was weak in temperament. Ernie Loeb, himself who put him Select told me he didn't care for his temperament though it was stronger than some of the American dogs. I had a granddaughter of Canto through Arras Vom Haus Helma,VA1, she was a nice female with excellent movement, but had Bodo v Lierberg on the bottom to strengthen temperament. Quanto had nice temperament though he did go back to the L litter Wienerau which was really the start of the weakness of temperament in these two dogs. Canto went through the L litter also, I think through Liande(one of them went through Liande). Of course Canto's mother was Zilly and I don't think she was a pillar of strength in temperament keeping Canto from going VA. Canto and Quanto especially, could produce decent temperament if they had continued to breed them to the Mutz and Marko lines. But, as history has shown it gradually became a two horse race. |
by Preston on 16 February 2010 - 05:06 |
| Very good points Gustav. I was told that for whatever reasons a fair number of Quanto offspring were very correct in temperament, would be considered quite strong by todays' standards. I also know that Mutz Peltierfarm could not be placed Sieger because he was owned by Dr. Rummel if I remember correctly and was sold to Italy but he was used quite a bit and as you say added into the quanto/canto mix for improved temperament. Many said at the time he produced very good working temperament and an explosive defense reaction. Why his line has been abandoned is a mystery to me. As I remember the GSDs of Hausbeck were quite impressive in temperament as well as looks. My own view is that the dogs of the period 1980-1985 were the best, even though the dogs of today have more red and black. |
by Sunsilver on 16 February 2010 - 07:50 |
| Especially praiseworthy were Quanto's three male offspring, Lasso de Val Sole (a super hard dog), So, that explains why this dog pops up quite frequently in working line pedigrees as well as show line! I'd wondered about that. Very informative post, Preston! Thank you. |
Sunsilver by Lief on 16 February 2010 - 11:07 |
| Great Post I thought Canto Quanto Mutz was always considered the golden cross ? I think Lasso was the one whose old Grandma wasn't titled and they went and got a SchH 1 on her at 9 years old or something so that Lasso could go Va |
Lief by Gustav on 16 February 2010 - 13:47 |
| Having owned a daughter of Meik v d Peltzerferm, I can attest to the strength of this line in temperament. Meik didnot have the same phenotype as his brother Mutz. There were only three in the litter. Meik was a dark almost bi-color type dog as was his daughter Anka. Mutz was a saddleback with his tan not being strong in pigment compared to Quanto. Mutz did not throw the flowing gait of the Wienerau dogs though he was very balanced. Mutz/Meik went back through the sire line of Axel v Peltzerferm and had no L litter Wienerau blood in him. Marko was originally in the group with Canto/Mutz/Quanto/. Marko also did not have the L litter Wienerau blood in him and actually was from old HGH blood from one parent. But Marko was almost bicolor and produced Blacks also. He did produce some VA males and females for maybe two generations, but as the trend moved exclusively toward black and Red/orange, then Marko blood was discarded, and eventually Mutz was discarded although much later than Marko. You can still assess some Mutz today in showlines, almos impossible to go back to Marko. Also, Marko and Mutz didnot produce the type of extension that the breed ring was moving toward. Again, Mutz had more than Marko but neither had what Quanto/Canto lines would produce. |
by gertv on 16 February 2010 - 17:27 |
| Preston for president!! Posts like these make it really worthwile visiting this site. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge with us, much appreciated and a huge please for more! Regards gertv |
by GSDSRULE on 16 February 2010 - 18:18 |
| What a great, informative post. Thank you. |
GSDSRULE by mobjack on 17 February 2010 - 00:05 |
by Preston on 17 February 2010 - 00:51 |
| Lief, thanks for the info on Lasso's grandma. That would explain a lot. Reminds me of the stories about like SV Pres. Messler's excellent black and red stud dog that could not go VA because of his mother or grandmother not being breed surveyed (he could only go as high as V1 but deserved to go VA). Gustav, you have a great deal of knowledge about the breed and I heartily agree with all you have said. I heard many stories about Mutz progeny and grandprogeny having very explosive, but appropriate and ideal defensive reactions when provoked with no prior training at all, and yet were safe and solid to bring around family and friends. Was your Meik daughter like this? Some of the older breed wardens used to say that the temperament of Lasso, Bodo and Mutz was ideal and that they produced many offspring with that ideal temperament. My view is that sidegait must be sacrificed somewhat for better proportions, better sex type in males and better temperament. As I remember a lot more of the West German dogs back in the 1980's both WL and SL had the "eagle eye" look of total confidence, like "fire in the eyes" or a "don't mess with me" look. There were more WL GSDs being shown in the showring in Germany. Don't see this eagle eye look much anymore, but it is unmistable when present and almost always signifies ideal temperament (often accompanied by a difficult first year of puppyhood if the GSD is raised in the house--better have a great deal of nylabones ready). Fero produced quite a few with this look and some of his offspring were explosive when pushed. It tends to occur in dark sables and WL most of the time now but there are always exceptions. Most GSD owners nowadays have never experienced a GSD like this and believe that any GSD has to be Sch trained or protection trained in order to be "manstopper type" home protector when kept in the home 24/7 as a pet. This is not true if one acquires a GSD of this kind of temperament. I have had GSDs in years past that if a neighbor opened our screen door to walk in in the summer time, would grab them lightly by the wrist and bring them to us even if we told them to come on in when they rang the doorbell. If the dogs didn't know the person they just wouuldn't let them in at all. And this was with no training except obediance. Later on with one of these dogs when he was tested on lead cold by a friend of mine with a sleeve who hit me with a rolled up newspaper , he bit the first time and everytime with no hesitation. A GSD with correct temperament will do this and folks should not be surprised. Weaker temperamented dogs may need a lot of agitation training over a long period of time to be able to do this, but they will provide great protection with that training if they are sound. |
by Xeph on 17 February 2010 - 01:16 |
| What a fantastic thread!!! |
Xeph by Two Moons on 17 February 2010 - 01:24 |
| It's good to see your name on a post once again Preston. Best wishes. Moons. |
Two Moons by hodie on 17 February 2010 - 01:41 |
| Hi Preston and Moons, Glad to see you both here. An interesting discussion for when I have time. Right now, it is time for the Olympics!!! Regards to you both. Preston, I hope you are feeling better. |
by Preston on 17 February 2010 - 03:19 |
| Regards to both of you Hodie and Moons. Here is another example of "fire in the eyes" or the look of eagles in a puppy. It is unmistable and usually the mark of optimal GSD temperament. It is a look of total confidence, a look of "don't mess with me". When you see this in a young puppy it is amazing and impressive. One dark sable male I acquired which had this look (pick of the litter based on confidence and aggressiveness) would bark and charge the door and try to protect us when the doorbell rang when he was just 8 weeks old. Truly remarkable. He was truly a great GSD and lived with us for 10 years. http://www.eurosportk9.com/images/v/vanessapups/brutus2.jpg This is a Eurosport K9 puppy out of Brutus. I know that Hodie has had a bitch with this look in the past. Personally I would like to see more GSDs bred with this kind of temperament even with some compromising on sidegait if necessary. When one has a GSD with this kind of temperament as a 24/7 in home pet, they usually always end up prefer it after the first year is over. |
by lachanchis on 17 February 2010 - 04:04 |
| Thanks Preston for this thread. Any books. articles, authors etc etc that you recommend to learn more about GSD pedigrees? |
by vonissk on 17 February 2010 - 04:08 |
| What a nice informative post. Thanks Preston and Gustav. |
vonissk by Sunsilver on 17 February 2010 - 04:24 |
Since this thread has caught the attention of some really knowledgeable people, I'd like to ask a question about something GSDTravels posted earlier today. He/she gave the following link: www.archive.org/stream/dogsofallnations00masorich#page/n5/mode/2up to a really old book that was published in 1915. If you browse trhough it to Page 66, you will see the German Shepherd. Let's see if I can copy and paste the description:Those of you like Hodie, who have read the really old books about the breed: what do you make of this description?? I've higlighted the sections that made me raise my eyebrows. So, not only was white accepted, but also white with large dark patches?? Wow, that's a new one! Unfortunately, the ends of the paragraph were cut off when the book was copied, so we'll have to guess at some of what it says. I really don't know what to make of the description of the different coat types which talks about 'beards' and 'moustaches'! If I had the time, I'd read more of the descriptions for other breeds to get a feel for how accurate the book is. BTW another thing that amazed me was the number of breeds in the book that are no longer in existence! Hmmm...maybe we should be worried? |
by Gustav on 17 February 2010 - 05:27 |
| Yes Preston, My Meik daughter was very strong in temperament. Two other dogs that were very nice in conformation and temperament of that time was Enno v Antfretal and Frei v Gugge. Frei was a VA dog that was either black or 95% black and produced some hard dogs that had a litter edge and some very nice temperament. Enno was one of the great producers of working dogs siring Bundesseigerprufund chamions Drigon and Falk. What many people don't realize is that Enno was a V conformation dog and produced many V conformated dogs. Before 1973 these dogs and their progeny did well at Regional(LGSZ) and Seiger shows in conformation. Again these dogs didn't have the color or the extreme extension to continue to have progeny win under the Martin Brothers. So today if you look at the better conformated workinglines like Maineiche and Kleinein Phal, and Stadfelt(sp), etc. you will see dogs like Marko, Mutz, Enno, and Frei, along with the many Busecker Schlob dogs that were deemed correct in conformation before the type that is current today. None of these dogs go back through the L litter Wienerau and therefore the character issues. One last thing....it is not the dogs Canto/Quanto that has put the working aspect of the current showlines in question so much....it is the repeated linebreeding and linebreeding and linebreeding on these dogs that were grounded in the trophy dogs of the Thuringian type that has led to today. Just like Lance of Franjo did not produce the temperament you see in the American show ring...but the continued linebreeding on hin and in many cases 2-2 breedings on already inbred dogs of Lance have led to the current situation. |
by GSDtravels on 17 February 2010 - 06:08 |
| Fantastic thread and very interesting. I have much to learn about lines and who brought what. My boy has these lines in his ancestry so now you have me on a quest to learn even more. Thank you, this is one of the best threads I've seen on this DB and I've been here for a while. Preston, wish you'd rear your head a bit more often. Thank you! Sunsilver, you gave me credit for reference materials in the above post, it wasn't me. And I'm a she  |
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