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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Tug a War? Who should win? (14 replies)
Tug a War? Who should win? by mockbam5 on 10 February 2010 - 03:49 |
| When I play Tug a war with my puppy I let him win to build self confidence, but then I'm started thinking if later on he may look at me as a inferior?? Am I overthinking the dog now? |
by VomMarischal on 10 February 2010 - 03:51 |
| Puppy should always win, but only after he has really tried. |
by mockbam5 on 10 February 2010 - 03:52 |
| ok so until he really fights for it I shouldnt let him win? |
by Xeph on 10 February 2010 - 03:58 |
| Pretty much...but this doesn't mean that tug shouldn't have rules. #1 When I say "aus" my dog must let go, I will not tell him again. He also must sit or lie down before I offer to play again #2 If it's in my hand, it's mine. There will be absolutely no bullying to get the tug #3 When I say we're done...we're done. |
Xeph by VomMarischal on 10 February 2010 - 04:13 |
| It's a gradual thing...if he tries even one fiftieth harder the second time, he wins. Every time you make the tiniest step in improvement, he wins. |
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 10 February 2010 - 04:15 |
| i understand from a human standpoint why would you ask that question, inferior etc... dogs don't look at it that way. In short... puppy ALWAYS wins. But, he must be all over it like flies on shit and really give it a go to win. No bullying, just clean, hard playing fun. |
by k9ulf on 10 February 2010 - 09:49 |
| If you let the puppy win depends what you wanna achieve at the time. Building confidence requires the win of the "trophy", but if you overdo this you might have problems with the "out" later. So better you just play by puppies rules, sometimes you show weakness and let the pup win and sometimes you show strenght by locking up until the pup lets go by itself, add "out" and carry on with the game. How often you let the pup win and how often you do an"out" depends on the puppy and you need to be able to read the pup. Another thing, I always stop playing tug`o`war at about12-14 weeks old as they start teething because the exercise can become counter productive.Once you have planted the seed, its not a problem to refresh it after the teething with about 8 months, when all the teeth have settled into the jaws. All the best Ulf |
by Keith Grossman on 10 February 2010 - 16:12 |
| Playing tug with a puppy is more about imprinting for bite development than it is about building confidence. The pup always wins but only when he has a full, calm grip. If you give the pup a little slack in the tug, it will encourage him to counter, or reposition his grip for a deeper bite. Only after he has done so and has calmed down does he win the fight. Avoid letting go of the tug as soon as the pup counters as it teaches him that he wins by readjusting his grip and encourages him to mouth the tug or sleeve. I do not teach the out playing tug but instead start positively reinforcing it completely out of the context of protection using two balls. I throw the first ball and wait for the pup to retrieve it, bring it back and drop it before throwing the second. By using the 'aus' command when I anticipate the dog is about to drop the ball, it reinforces the association between the command and letting go of something. This exercise also helps build drive because the faster the dog brings back the ball, the faster he gets to chase the next one. Hope this helps... |
Keith Grossman by ALPHAPUP on 10 February 2010 - 22:08 |
| I posted at hread today -BUT either never made it or got deleted. This question is a perfect example : the Non Schutzhund way of looking at GSDs was my thread ,,,, the essence : Sch folk get so tunneled vision . it is like a dog locked into prey that you can no longer proceed to working it in defense mode ! Did one ever think : it is not a question of the dog winning !! yes .. the dog should 1. physically learn basic skills , bite grip , learn not an issue about going into the body / having body contact, entering for the Fast to body and to intially bite hard and then hard grip . from an emotion point of view / mind set , to have confidence , self assurance , indepenently work and concentrate so that there is no such thing as a distraction or environmental influence !! BUT .. the BIG TIME BUT here.. is it should be FUN to the dog .. NOT A CONTEST , not a pitting of the wills , not a personal challenge [ as a pup] !! Please .. this is not an issue about who WINS or doesn't. .. another take : you should have DOMINION over your dog but overly physically or verbally dominating your dog will take away from it's potential and ability to execute ! OK .. for the serious who want to better themselves . i won't post a link as this reply may get geleted . so instead : You engine search " French ring training articles " . then find " Dr P's training philosophy " / link and check out the very nicely written ring sport article . It will compare Sch outlook to how the Europeans train regarding Ring [ Mondio , Belgium , French Rings] philosophy . I guarantee if you continue a dog sport whether Sch , Campagna , KNVP , Ring , mondio .. you will never see the GSD in the same trining light again and will better your dog. Good luck .. just listen and learn.. AP |
by VomMarischal on 10 February 2010 - 22:21 |
| I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but DUH it has to be fun. You think we're looming over the puppy, scowling? |
by ALPHAPUP on 11 February 2010 - 02:48 |
| Vom == your comment is rude ..just by the fact you posted that commentary -- Did you read the article ?? No you haven't . therefore you comment is not deserving... you do a disservice to others reading the thread .. the article has a lot to offer newcomers. the point I alluded to : is that the whole aspect of working the dog ,obedience / protection compared to Sch is with a different outlook ! BTW i am not knocking Sch .. it is a great sport . the commentary is : aimed that one should see / hear what some other great sports [ and one's that are extremely demaning on the dog !] offer so that you may extract from / use. .,Did you ever see those dogs perform in Mondio , belgium /f rench Ring? ? listen ,, just the entry levels alone surpass the skill and difficulty comparable to Sch 3 level . there is something to gain by broadening one's horizen . we don't think of win / lose in training the dog .. there is no concept of ' the dog having to win " .. the approach is entirely different .. we ' think dog ' as we interact not thinking as humans do in training. we don't use words like drive .. we see things as behaviors. there are a number of commentaries in the article as to how other protection sports see the dog compared to Sch ! .. your comment : just as I wrote before -- it reflects the scenario of a dog stuck in prey behavior ! So close minded some on this forum are .. no doubt you will never improve or better yourselves. And what I take most offense to : you have a few years experience [ sad if even many years ] and you think you are experts when you don't even know an ounce of what you should . then you give lopsided advice to others on a world forum .. please Vom .. a petty reply .. BTW - I once did Sch with a fellow .. he thought his Rott was doing great bbite work ... and honestly the dog did exucute all the exercises well .. quite well . But .. the trainer and the owner could not see .. the dog wasn't having fun ! don't think just because a puppy / dog wins ..and wags its tail ... that ..that means the dog is having fun. Just like a dog with a force retrieve.. many think that is obedience .. andf many are so foolish .. so foolishly numb... they mistake COMPLIANCE for OBEDIENCE ,.. |
by VomMarischal on 11 February 2010 - 03:06 |
| No, you're right, I didn't read that article. I just read your note. And it seems like pretty obvious stuff to me. I tried to go read that article by Dr P the other day, but the layout of that site drove me nuts and so I stopped. Dr P? That in itself is just lame. Who's he think he/she is? Thanks so much for your concern, I do know when my dog is having fun. When she's not, it's because I'm frustrated, and I stop for the day. Don't need your grousing to know what to do. Why are you lecturing people whose attitudes you are only guessing at, and in a tone that sounds like a fundamentalist preacher? This is why I can't bother with you. It's too bad, but maybe someone else will find something of value in your lecturing. PS. Your previous post did not get lost or is not deleted. It was there but nobody bothered with it. www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/362272.html |
by ALPHAPUP on 11 February 2010 - 03:36 |
| Vom .. with sincerity [ not sarcarsm ] .. thank-you for stating you didn't read the article . .. I will credit you with having character and integrity . Yes , the article is long .. i viewed what he had to say not at one , but two , three sessions. At first i was thinking another article to laugh at.. I did critque his words.. but admitingly .. ithey have alot of merit. you don't know me.. not my intention to lecture .. but them again .. i have seen people pay thousands to learn in order to work their dogs. i ask no one to agree with me .. just the opposite .. in my classes .. i teach people to read their dog , gather info and to ' think for themselves' . and I am honest ... have no need to make money in the dog world. exploit people or be egotistical .. my words are free / at no cost. my words are for folks like you who may get frustrated or wish to achieve more ..even if that means just simply walking a better walk with your dog. and .. In regards to you as af orum member .. i would with care state: that is the point .. of my potifications. If one has a mindset before one even interacts with a dog .. that would leave no place for frustration of any sort. and I don't mean that as a critism to you .. but as a justification as to why I prompt folks on the forum to broaden the way of thinking about their dogs. [ you have character .. and for that .. i would help you any time ]. Good luck ith your dog[s] ....AP |
by VomMarischal on 11 February 2010 - 04:23 |
| Thanks. Good to have one more source article from which to glean information. |
by windwalker18 on 12 February 2010 - 07:42 |
| Xeph makes a good point... the pup should win the game, but the game has rules, and IF you say the release word they need to quit. I started using "LeaveIT" when Ike was quite little everytime he snagged something he shouldn't have. If we're having a good ole tug of war in the yard and he's yanking my arm out of the socket... I DO NOT order a release... he gets the win and makes a circut of the yard with his trophy before coming back to me with it. If I'm just holding it, and he is holding but not in any kind of competition game with me I can say "LeaveIT" and he'll release... I almost always follow that up by throwing the thing across the yard for him to chase... so he again wins, but on my terms. |
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