German Shepherd Dog > Country of Origin - Who breeds the better dog - A civil discussion ;-) (105 replies)
by Xeph on 12 February 2010 - 16:32
|Molto grazie, Mystere ^_^|
by Samba on 12 February 2010 - 16:34
| admirable trait unless they were able to preserve it across the lines.|
I hope there are genetics in the american lines to still produce good working ability. If the fancy were to concentrate on selecting for them they might revive some strength. That would be awesome for sure!
by Charles McCubbins on 12 February 2010 - 17:51
|Hi this is the first time I have releyed to one of theses post have been a member for 2 years. This Subject seems to get heated.|
First I am NOT A BREEDER. My first GSD was a Jim's Newman Grand Son, V Don vom Rolandsteich great Grand Son. At the time I had know idea what this meant, I was just looking for a GSD. Any way at the time I had 3 small children and was traveling alot. So The dog was trained in basic obenance, advanced obedience and personnel protection. The breeder price included basic obedience after doing the basic I went all the way, the training was a blast. This dog could go from hitting a sleeve to playing with a 5 year old at the drop of a hat. This was one great dog for 15 years father time caught up with him. So I wanted another dog just like Jack. So I started doing research into bloodlines. I need up with Imur Mersak a dog with heavy Pohranicni Straze DDR background.•4 - 3 Cordon An-Sat •5 - 4. SG TERI SNB CS. He is not as big but has all the GSD traits, along with basic obedience, advanced obedience and personnel protection great dog everything I was looking for. Also have an all DDR female, mother is 5-5 on V Don vom Rolandsteich. Father is •4 - 4.SG Blacky vom Gleisdreieck•3 - 3 SG Lord vom Gleisdreieck•5 - 5 V Ingo von Rudingen•5 - 5, in Hondo vom Haus Welsch•4 - 4 in V Jeff vom Flämings-Sand•5 - 5 Conny vom Kemmlerblick•5 - 5.SG Urte aus der Quitzowstadt. To me this line has been ever thing I wanted in a GSD. The other line are prboly just as good I do not know because I have had no reason to look outside of these lines. Not everybody looking for a GSD does the kind of research I did for myself they are just looking for a dog that has all the traits a GSD should have. I think when people read some of this it turns them off to the bred. Do my dogs have some flaws you bet, I just wanted to know when that quite puppy grows up I know what I have. I hope this does not make anybody mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Samba on 12 February 2010 - 18:15
| I am glad you got a dog you like!|
That is something different from a civil discussion of who breeds a better dog? There is such a significant split in the breed that , well it is real, and to talk about the dogs in the various splits and how they compare is not a problem and should not be a problem for newcomers to the breed to know about. To talk about what needs to be enhanced or decreased in various types is not upsetting. I hear people of all the camps doing it all the time. Its dog breeding. It is about genetic selection. I see no issue with talking about the genetic choices of the breeders and their various lines have chosen to go with. This information is very important to people, especially those looking for a companion dog!
I am very interested in strong and appropriate German Shepherds from all lines. I have exhibited and/or trained in a variety of venues with the dogs. I like me some American dogs! I would love to discuss with a successful show breeder how they make their breeding selections to achieve a balance of drives such as prey, defense, aggression and fight. There is more to a correct working character in a GSD than just that it will bite when appropriate. People act like these drives in balance are unnecessary in the breed and are only for sport or working extremists. This is not so, they are things that are inherent in a GSD and used to be so much more often before the split came about in the last 40 years.
If there are super american line dogs worthy of universal sieger type recognition..... nicely constructed and capable of competitive levels of work. A dog able to place well at the National conformation show and the national working trial!! I am first in line I tell ya!
by Charles McCubbins on 12 February 2010 - 19:22
|Was just making the point that Germany bred dogs have worked for me!!!|
by VonIsengard on 12 February 2010 - 20:15
|Of course there are poor quality dogs in every country but the best GSDs in the world are still coming from Europe. Period.|
And if want to say "better" is a term open to intrepretation, I will say when I use this word I am referring to ability to comform to SV standards.
I have worked, many, many GSDs of all types and all lines and I have yet to work with an American show type dog, even one that is better than most, who can hold a candle to an average german dog in not only working ability but simply soundness in body and mind. The best American show type dogs in temperament make good AKC obedience dogs and that's about it.
I wonder what the world would be like if all breeds had to conform to a structural and mental standard prior to being bred. What if goldens and labs had to pass hunting trials, what if terriers had to pass earthdog, borders and shelties and corgi had to pass herding trials? What if they all had to meet the correct standards structurally, what if they all had to be tested for genetic health defects? I think dog buyers would finally be forced to do a bit more homework to find a dog that matches their lifestyle rather than choosing a breed based on looks and needing a dog bred outside its correct temperament to conform what they want. I daresay there would be a lot less purebred dogs rotting in shelters or sitting in rescue.
And then I woke up.
Preston- great to see you back here, your knowledge and demeanor are sorely missed and greatly needed.
by Preston on 13 February 2010 - 07:20
|Gustav, yes you make good sense. That is why I would never use an American Shepherd for breeding. But it is because I like the SV/FCI standard and am not into the AKC/GSDCA American showing which strongly rewards sidegait over everything else. If I was in a pinch for a GSD there have been a few Adult American Shepherd males I would have bought (I don't do any breeding now). One was a half W. German dog of many years ago (a Lance of Franjo son bred to a very tough red and black west german import female) and another would have been the black ASD Metz's bred, and a couple of others which were exceptional animals in their own right (it just happens sometimes). I do personally feel that a dog should have met minimum SV/FCI standrads for breeding in order to be bred (breed surveyed and passed, joints A1, sch degree, BH and AD, etc.). But if Americans want to breed for a showring "movement based" sport, that is their right since this is still a free country. Like any purposeful breeding, one makes big choices and comprimises when they do breeding. The German Working Lines select the best working and protection temperament many times to the exclusion of many other important traits. Some of these dogs make poor pets, are quite ugly and deformed in comparison to the FCI/SV standard, and some have unacceptable health problems and high cull rates. The German showlines select for beauty, conformation including sidegait, too often de-emphasizing top working ability and protection temperament (there are exceptions however). The problem is not with the SV system (it is very good), but it is the people at the top of the SV and the breed wardens that do not follow it. They become kennel blind, make serious exceptions and comprimise and behave more like members of a cartel or a political party than a breed associatuion concerned about breeding the GSD as close to the standard as possible. Thus we get roach backs with a weak middle piece with a "vertebra break upward" quite frequently as these dogs tire. And too often these dogs hitch in the rear and roll up in the rump.|
In order to win in the AKC/GSDCA American showring an ASD must have what appears to be extreme sidegait. Many who win would fall apart if the judge forced the usually professional handlers to run them "loose lead". A tight lead can cover up many problems in movement and back and croup problems too (in any showring SV or AKC/GSDCA). Generally ASDs appear to judges to be "ring stable", and most won't place apparent spooks. Some have passed a temperament test which is very basic but can show the dogs temperament fairly well as far as its acceptability for a pet. Generally these ASDs now have pretty good hips and elbows, but most are weak as far as SV/FCI standards for working ability and temperament. Every dog must be evaluated individually as an adult in real time new situations by a stranger to get a fair assessment of the temperament. Any litter even in German working lines can have wide variance in temperament. I know of some top working line litters in the past that had extreme hardness, extreme territorial dominance and defensive fight in one of two of the puppies, and the rest clearly not Sch. material, but rock solid for good home pets/protectors. I know of some WL litters that have had outright spooks in them. I bought one that was a flake and ended up dying of a brain aneurism (genetic). There are many very sound west German showlines and working line GSDs that are not suitable for Sch but make good family pets and home protectors. These dogs should not be bred. KCzaja, you are correct in your assertions. I think your V rated bitch has exceptional temperament for being from top west G
by Preston on 13 February 2010 - 07:39
|Now I like exceptions. Here is one GSD that meets the FCI/SV standard almost perfectly. He seems to be a producer. |
This is a dog the showline people ought to consider using heavily. Excellent male type, good bone, great pigment, superb working temperament, excellent croup and rear angulation, correct front angulation, correct sidegait.
This is what folks should breed for. Looks, movement, temperament. This dog has it all and he can produce. Hats off to the breeder, owner and trainer of this truly superb, exceptional GSD.
V (BSZS) Ajax vom Rohnsaler Bach, Sch3, IPO3, FH2, KK1, A1 hips
Take a look at his very exceptional young son: Eryx Weissberitzal
by Xeph on 13 February 2010 - 08:25
|Thank you for your well thought out and honest (without being rude) posts :)|
I like the two boys you posted overall (particularly Ajax! Whoo!), but I don't care for the front of either. The front seems to be pushed well forward of where it should be (I find this to be a problem in all lines). I personally feel that proper shoulder layback has been a bit lost (and before anybody asks, I'm young, but I sure "look backwards" so I can move forward).
But, if you can point out where I may be wrong, I am happy to listen :)
by crhuerta on 13 February 2010 - 14:04
|Preston....good to see your posts again!|
The 2 males that you posted above.......are extremely nice dogs! I would ABSOLUTELY use either dog in a breeding program.....SL or WL......and PROUDLY.
Ajax is structured extremely well.......very (small) structural faults can be honestly seen in his picture overall.
That is one of the few dogs that a breeder can say....they have pretty much ALL they need in one package.
I am keeping his contact info, for further reference...in regards to a couple of females we have......
We may breed "SL" bloodlines....but temperment is as important to us, as the structure......(.a pretty dog with no temperment....is useless)..
by Gustav on 13 February 2010 - 14:41
|Preston, You have identified two very nice dogs. And your assertions about each of the lines has truth in it. The issue for me is breeder vs owner. For the owner to own the exception, parade it, title it, or show it is fine and I applaud them. But for the breeder they must be more discriminating, IMO. To me its no different than a person who has an OFA Excellent dog out of a litter that had three moderately dysplastic dog. YES, that litter can produce great hips if you want to use the exception as your reference point.......but savy breeders wouldn't touch the dog with a ten foot pole. Another thing, I go to many local, regional and national sport events. I hardly ever see any workingline dogs that are butt ugly anymore. I usually see some nice structural dogs that are performing. There are some, but its not like its the majority whatsoever. There are also many many V rated workingline dogs these days. Many west dogs, DDR, Czech dogs. As a matter of fact, every dog that I own or coown,(5), is workinglines and out of V rated parents. Not as uncommon as people project. We're on the same page in theory,(your presentation is more easily digestible, but as my mother used to say I need to concentrate on the message not the messenger lest I don't learn "nothing"! Keep posting Guy!!|
by Gustav on 13 February 2010 - 14:43
|Preston, You have identified two very nice dogs. And your assertions about each of the lines has truth in it. The issue for me is breeder vs owner. For the owner to own the exception, parade it, title it, or show it is fine and I applaud them. But for the breeder they must be more discriminating, IMO. To me its no different than a person who has an OFA Excellent dog out of a litter that had three moderately dysplastic dog. YES, that litter can produce great hips if you want to use the exception as your reference point.......but savy breeders wouldn't touch the dog with a ten foot pole. Another thing, I go to many local, regional and national sport events. I hardly ever see any workingline dogs that are butt ugly anymore. I usually see some nice structural dogs that are performing. There are some, but its not like its the majority whatsoever. There are also many many V rated workingline dogs these days. Many west dogs, DDR, Czech dogs. As a matter of fact, every dog that I own or coown,(5), is workinglines and out of V rated sire. Not as uncommon as people project. We're on the same page in theory,(your presentation is more easily digestible, but as my mother used to say I need to concentrate on the message not the messenger lest I don't learn "nothing"! Keep posting Guy!!|
by Gustav on 13 February 2010 - 14:46
|Sorry for double post folks, the second post I changed my post to V rated sires as opposed to parents. Couldn't find edit and didn't want to be inaccurate...sorry again for double post.|
by Sunsilver on 13 February 2010 - 17:18
|For future reference, the 'owner edit' button should be under your user name and post count on the far right, Gustav. :)|
by Preston on 13 February 2010 - 18:46
|Gustav, it's good to hear that WL folks where you are are producing good confirmation. What part of the world are you located in? And your assessment of the much greater responsibilities a breeder has are important points that deserve attention. |
The hardest thing with the GSD is the lack of good education availabale for novices and even those who have been in the breed. The politics and cartel behaviors tend to create delusions (keenl blindness) which cause folks to ignore serious faults in order to attain their designated primary purposes in the breed (usually winning at all costs and selling remaining non competitive stock).
When top breed wardens and officials fall prey to these factors, the truth gets buried in an avalanche of hype, political expediancy and money. If the top leadership in a breed association has become compromised and has "drank the coolaid" due to their cartel type participation, and this has occurred over a ong period of time and has become "normalized", then it is very hard for GSD enthusiasts to change it. It can only happen when their is a groundswell of opinion which forces a "tipping point" or critical mass. Then change can occur. Some think the fact that the Bundessieger Profung winner was placed select at last years Sieger Show marked a real turning point in the SV. We shall see.
Only the serious breeders can promote the truth and teach the newbies. One breeder once said that if he tried to tell new buyers too much about the standard that if they believed him he would have no market for his pets, since Americans want the best conformation ioften above anything else, even temperament or health; or if they didn't believe him he would be raising unnecessary doubts in the potential buyers. Raising expectations for a buyer that doesn't have the money to pay for a better GSD and wants one can quickly ose interest.
Too much accurate information can perhaps create market restraints, but can raise the pricing for good GSDs from good breeders too. This is a very old dilemma. It costs money and time to be honest, and that is why its maybe best if breeders do it as a hobby with dog sales helping to cover some of the costs rather than attempting to make all their expenses and make a big profit.
by animules on 13 February 2010 - 19:34
|Ajax has been one of my favorite dogs for years.|
by Gustav on 13 February 2010 - 20:59
|Preston, Your synopsis is right on target!!|
by Samba on 14 February 2010 - 01:35
| Nice dogs ...|
Nice black dog..
I am sure there are so so many more examples of dogs with nice conformation and working character. There would be no objection to shortening the gap and breed dogs joining the working in competition for conformation and working ability. M
I would like the American showlines to also close ranks.
I am wondering if Mr. Metz has breed animals or knows of ASL that are on par with the universal sieger type dog. If so, then yes, breeding some of the best in competition with the Europeans! I need to get out to see more ASL shows I guess.
by Preston on 14 February 2010 - 03:46
|Samba, the GSDs you list are excellent. Showline folks as well as working line folks would be wise to carefully consider using these dogs. And Bundesseiger V Javir Talk Marda has produced some males that have much better conformation than himself with his same excellent temperament. He appears to be a very good producer so far.|
Lest we ignore top producing bitches, consider V Chuckie vom Schloß Laer. Look at her producing ability. Look at the superb GSDs she has produced, including the impressive stallion male V Onyx vom Silbersee (USA) and V Hutch Kalten Hardt. Chuckie is short bodied and the ideal bitch. A bitch like this is very, very nice, but the key is she can produce structurally sound and correct, top rated and very competitive males. This makes her valuable to the breed.
by mobjack on 14 February 2010 - 04:17