German Shepherd Dog > Showline Sable GSDs (151 replies)
Showline Sable GSDs
by GSDfan2009 on 12 January 2010 - 21:20
Does anyone know breeders of showline sable GSDs ? I am looking for Timo / Arex line or something nice. Link to such a dog's pedigree would be helpful too..
Thanks to All
by Dog1 on 12 January 2010 - 21:55
by Dog1 on 12 January 2010 - 22:02
by Dox on 12 January 2010 - 23:14
by Detroit SchH on 12 January 2010 - 23:21
|add for grey showline: |
by oso on 12 January 2010 - 23:28
| Here is mine - only just got his kkl1 so no pups from him yet (in the photo he is only a year old, will try to post a recent photo here, but doesn't always work).|
by VomMarischal on 13 January 2010 - 01:59
|That just doesn't look like what I think of as sable. Not to say there's anything wrong with him, but...it's not really classic agouti, is it?|
by oso on 13 January 2010 - 02:48
| Do you mean mine? I am not sure what you mean by classic agouti, but Storm is a direct descendent of Timo and unquestionably sable! just a richer red colour than some (this from the mothers side) - quite similar in colour to the nice sable that Dog1 posted really. I have tried unsuccessfully to post a recent picture here but it just seems to get stuck every time, so I updated the photo on the database, i hope to get a better shot soon though.|
The little Remo Fichtenschlag puppy looks nice....
by VomRuiz on 13 January 2010 - 03:23
|I think that both of the dogs OSO's and Dog1 are Red and Black. Those aren't sable's, I thought sables looked more like this dog.|
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 13 January 2010 - 05:04
|There are no sable showline dogs that I know of, all sable dogs are working lines. None of the pictures of dogs posted above, except what VonRuiz posted are sables, they all all black and tan or black and red.|
by VomMarischal on 13 January 2010 - 06:29
|Sable is the color of the girl in my avatar. Those showline dogs above are variations on richly pigmented black/brown. Black and tans don't have multicolored single hairs; they have black hairs and lighter undercoat. Are the black hairs solid black, or are they two/three bands of color on EACH HAIR? Technically, sable hairs are black-tipped light hairs, darker sables having more black on the tips--not a higher number of black tipped hairs. Does that make any sense?|
by Maris on 13 January 2010 - 10:56
by oso on 13 January 2010 - 11:43
|I am sorry you are wrong, those dogs are both definitely sable not black and tan - and yes there are showline sables - someone help please I am in a rush just now, will elaborate more later.|
by Ibrahim on 13 January 2010 - 14:16
|Yes there are showline sable dogs, Arlett used sable dogs to gain better pigmentation in his breeding program and produced sable show line dogs and that is a fact. Sables are not necessarily grey, some look very close to black saddled as most of them have the black saddle (black/tan) gene which is recessive to the sable one.|
I quote from VomMarischal, please pay more attention to Storm del mazen:
"Are the black hairs solid black, or are they two/three bands of color on EACH HAIR? Technically, sable hairs are black-tipped light hairs, darker sables having more black on the tips--not a higher number of black tipped hairs. "
by Ibrahim on 13 January 2010 - 14:27
|I could not add this to above post|
The picture in dog1 post is Ronaldo von Arlett who is a showline red sable, amazing how he is very close to Black red!!!
According to Arlett he is red sable, no doubt about that, Arlett wouldn't confuse his dog !!!
by Ibrahim on 13 January 2010 - 14:38
|This is how they look wen newly born|
by Silbersee on 13 January 2010 - 14:40
|VomRuiz and VomMarishal,|
just because you have not seen these kind of dogs, doesn't mean they do not exist. I can assure you that the male Dog 1 posted a photo of is a sable. His name is V-Ronaldo von Arlett, SchH3 KKL1a. My husband used to own him and we have a beautiful daughter out of Quinto, as we and friends in Germany call him. Here is a link to her page which illustrates perfectly how "sable" she used to be as a puppy and how she changed: www.vomsilbersee.com/penny.html Penny aka Rosi is a very rare dog in the showline world as she is a so-called double sable, both her parents are sable which gives her the chance of producing homozygous for the sable coat color but that remains to be seen. Her mother is a VA-Timo Berrekasten daughter (who received a lot of attention as the only sable Vice World Sieger in "modern" times) and her sire Quinto is from the sable Arlett-lines which actually have their foundation in Carlo and Era von der Wienerau, both sable dogs. Look them up some times!
These two lines, Arlett and the one of Timo Berrekasten are the only sable lines which were preserved in the showlines. Technically, Timo got his sable color from workinglines (V-Dax von der Kesmarker Tränke) but that is now far removed (5th generation): www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/20964.html . When you look at Timo, you will see a lot of black markings in him, his daughter Uganda even had more and looked more like a workingline: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/130945.html . I remember seeing Uganda as a young female being shown at the Sieger Show and she really stuck out. My guess is that her motherline to old Haus Dexel lines caused this as there is a roque black gene in there which pops up unexpectedly just when you thought it was eradicated for good.
When you look at my homepage, I also own (and bred) V-Gina vom Silbersee, SchH1 KKL1a who was the best sable female shown at the 2006 German Sieger Show :www.vomsilbersee.com/gina.html and her sable daughter (bred by Gina's co-owner in Germany): www.vomsilbersee.com/venja.html .
Sables in showlines are becoming more and more rare and will vanish completely if breeders do not watch out. I hope that more people will own, show and breed them. In Germany, there are really only Haus Dexel and Arlett kennels, although Fichtenschlag also had a few at one time. Here in the U.S. besides me, I only know Dog 1 and Val in Colorado, but I have not heard from her for a while now. I am talking about titled dogs, of course.
I don't know if you are one these people who had contacted me already. I get frequent and steady inquiries about sable puppies, but I currently only have workingline puppies. My two young sable girls out of the Timo-line (Penny and Venja) are still in Germany for titles and Gina does not want to come into heat again, sigh. She is more comfortable playing the alpha bitch here at home.
by Silbersee on 13 January 2010 - 14:44
we posted at the same time. Yes, that is Quinto (Ronaldo von Arlett) who we have owned for a few years. We got him from the kennel of Pallas Athene who in turned had owned him as part of the progeny group of Kliff vom Trollbachtal. He now lives with Dog 1 as a house dog and is still available for breeding at his kennel in VA.
by oso on 13 January 2010 - 14:47
|Thanks for posting the photo here. I have bred showline sables (as well as black and reds) for some time and I can confirm that Storm is definitely sable. As in all sables, and here I agree totally with Vom Marischal, the hairs on his saddle are black tipped, lighter at the base. He has just the same colour pattern as well known showline sables like Timo Berrekasten, Champ Dakota, Iceman von Arlett etc. and from birth the sable puppies in the litter are very different to the black/red ones. If I can, I will try to post a photo of him as a puppy with a black/red sister. His pedigree and breed survey state him as sable and many judges he has shown under have described him a a beautiful sable colour with excellent pigmentation. Just in case I cannot post the photos, there is a video of him practicing obedience and defense, if you skip to the end of the video there are various photos of him growing up, look at all these and I think there will be no doubt that he is sable. www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY85XY41wrU|
by Ibrahim on 13 January 2010 - 14:52
very good insight information, thanks a lot for that.