German Shepherd Dog > Teaching the "hold" for the retrieves (21 replies)
Teaching the "hold" for the retrieves
by jettasmom on 27 December 2009 - 04:04
Malachai vom Geistwasser 8mo.
That time of the year for some indoor training so decided to teach the "hold" for the retrieves. I am very happy with the progress in just a week and a half.
by DebiSue on 27 December 2009 - 12:03
|Very nice! Nice looking dog too.|
by hodie on 27 December 2009 - 15:42
|I think the retrieve of the dumbbell can be one of the most difficult things to train. So in the case where one has the dog taking the dumbbell and holding it, I think it is great progress. |
However, for my money, I would not use a clicker (that is personal choice and nothing wrong with those who can do it effectively). Most importantly, I would NOT allow the dog to be dropping it. This may well come back to haunt you sometime. He is learning that it is ok to drop it at your feet. That is not what must be done in the end. So I would, at such a point, be trying to play tug of war with him a bit with it, and then step to the side and hold on to the dumbbell and have him give it up to you, but not while standing directly in front of him. I would keep my hand on the dumbbell too so that he did not drop it, but was getting used to my taking it.
I would also do the beginning phases of this differently, but there are a variety of methods and the important thing is to find one that works and stick with it. However, as a general issue, I like to train for the task, in small steps, for sure, but without creating additional problems that I will have to correct later on. Letting him drop the dumbbell gives him the wrong impression of the task. In my experience, such a problem WILL resurface later and that leads to frustration and confusion for the dog and handler.
by jettasmom on 27 December 2009 - 16:54
|Thanks and yes I agree Hodie, my friend told me the same thing just this am. I am going to start going to the side of him and then click. I also use the clicker in the beginning stages of teaching and then go to a verbal marker, timing is very important in the teaching phase and the clicker is a good tool for me. I don't want to use the "out" very often while he is in front of me so going to the side will be better. I just started this a week and a half ago so changing things now for the better should be no problem. Foundation is very important and I don't want to mess things up since he has alot of potential.|
I am always open for ideas and showing a video can be a good tool and getting suggestions is also a good thing. Will post another video after we change things a bit.
by hodie on 27 December 2009 - 17:45
If you have access to it, you might also want to take a look at how Bernhard Flinks teaches the retrieve. And I have seen several other methods which work really well. The bottom line is that with all the dogs I have worked with, nothing works for every dog. So one has to be creative and analyze what is going on and try different things. However, once you find something that works, stick with it. Just be careful not to create additional problems in how you are training.
I think moving to the side is one way. No, you need not use "aus" but you could as long as it is associated with positive and not negative things in the mind of the dog. You might also put a leash on the dog, keep it very short, and while you tell the dog "hold", slip one hand under the chin, then give a command to out, or click and be prepared to catch the dumbbell so the dog is not spitting it out on the floor.
But you have a big part of this done. I have always found it very interesting in how many dogs simply won't want to take the damn thing in the first place. This has been true with so many dogs who even love to carry around fireplace logs, the dumbbell when I am not looking etc. So for these dogs, I try to build drive and eagerness for them to get it, and then gradually, and I mean gradually, turn it more and more towards the real thing. Of course, there are those people too who would use compulsion on this task, but in my experience, it is not something I like to do and I believe it often backfires. Eventually however, even a really positive method and a great dog may end up with a day where the dog says, "forget this, I don't want to do this". That becomes the real challenge then to make the dog want to do it again.
Good luck. Looks like you are making good progress. Just don't do it too often and bore the dog.
by jettasmom on 27 December 2009 - 18:02
|Thanks Hodie, Kai has tons of drive so not worried about boring him, I work him for about 10min and we are done. I am back chaining the retrieve piece by piece. He knows "aus" very well so not worried about that and for me I will add that in at the end. I just did a few min of me going to the side of him and he picked up on that very well and also me giving him the verbal marker and taking the wood before it falls to the ground while in front position. I am also adding in the "bring" and he is coming quick and fast to the front position but only a foot away and will gradually make it further and further. |
by hodie on 27 December 2009 - 18:39
Sounds like you are making great progress. This particular task makes trouble for many people who make so many mistakes that they never can teach this task and therefore, end up failing SchH 1 obedience.
Keep it up and good luck.
by Deejays_Owner on 28 December 2009 - 01:54
|He's Lookin Good Denise!!|
by sueincc on 28 December 2009 - 03:21
|VERY nice! I like his solid grip, no chewing.|
by happyday on 28 December 2009 - 14:08
|I am working on the hold as well - with my girl |
I have a question for you Jettamom - how did you get your dog to the stage he is at in the video- did he just take it and not chew - did he just hold it - my girl at first stage will hold it - but she won't close her mouth on it - I would be interested in what you did to get to the stage that you are at in your video. Give some detail on how you progressed to this stage -please......
by jettasmom on 28 December 2009 - 23:03
|Thanks for all the nice comments. |
Happyday, I just started by putting the wood in his mouth as I am saying hold, then I click and reward. My dog would rather have his food then the wood so he learned quickly that he takes the wood when I say hold he gets his reward. He has a nice grip on the wood and that is because of his genetics. Alot of dogs don't like something in their mouth and spit it out quickly but I guess I am lucky with pup, no force to get him to hold firmly so that made it very easy to go forward and make him hold it longer and longer, taping on the wood to make sure he continues with a firm grip and to not drop the wood until I mark the behavior and then reward.
by happyday on 29 December 2009 - 00:31
|You are right on the genetics -my male will take it - hold it - no mouth - but my female - not so good - I am having to teach her - it really pays to have a dog that is gentically able to do this.... but it is what it is - if you have a dog that you didn't have to work with and - after a week - will hold it like that - then that is great - but would like some inside on others that don't have it so luck...|
by DannyJ on 29 December 2009 - 04:54
|no comment on anything else but you have a talented young dog there for sure|
one thing i do have to say is think about where the dog is holding the dumbell... looks like just about everytime was back of the mouth... if you teach it this way... the natural way of thinking would be the dog would generally pick it up, then have to regrip it to the back of the mouth...
also this way you have more chances of mouthing in things such as hot weather where they may be panting....
with my limited experience the best place to place the dumbells is at the premolars
by Samba on 29 December 2009 - 16:13
To teach a dog that does not naturally hold tight.... I click when the dog does the least bit biting down. I sometimes even help them by gently closing their teeth on it. Mine have quickly learned that it is the biting down that gets the reward. I then start increasing criteria so that they are really clamped hard. After they learn this, you will see them bite harder hoping to hear the click. Teaching the hold is different from teaching the "take it" part where they willing take it into the mouth. When I say hold, the teeth clamp harder this way.
by jettasmom on 29 December 2009 - 17:20
|Thanks Dan and yes I do agree with what you say about where the wood is and I now only click when the wood is not in the back of his mouth. So many little things to be aware of but those little things are very important when setting a foundation. I also agree that once you click exercise is over but I also go to the side of the dog and click so I mix it up.|
Samba good points and seeing a video does help.
by steve1 on 01 January 2010 - 07:34
|Yes, i fully agree with Hodie Do not let the Pup drop it run round in a circle with him holding the Block then get hold of both ends and play side to side only not up and down so he grips harder let the block go and run round again and repeat three times He only lets go when you ask him and you will have hold of the Block then in a normal manner |
The Dog sitting in front you with both hands on the ends do not pull the Block but let him hold it relaxed then once he is not pulling against your hands tell him to LOS or whatever command you use
I have not seen your Video which is a shame i like to see how your Pup is progressing but i can never bring them up in the format you put them on here unless it is one you click and open
by sueincc on 01 January 2010 - 13:46
|Here is her video Steve:|
by steve1 on 01 January 2010 - 17:29
|Thank you Sue|
Denise better to catch hold of the Block on the ends as soon as the Pup holds it, you will feel him grip it harder move it from side to side, as you are in the Kitchen without room to move, I thought you were outside until i saw the Video
Once you release the block and he looks like dropping it catch hold of it again and another time after that three times is enough to can do it three or four times a day then
Did i notice your left hand going to your pocket for a treat for the Pup
I may be wrong but the Pup is anticpating you doing that move and each time you left hand moves to your pocket he drops the block.
To get over that hold the treat in your right palm and when you hold the block and when YOU want him to let go say Los and let him see the treat and have it, change hands but do not let him know where it comes from
He is growing into a Fine Looking Pup
by jettasmom on 01 January 2010 - 17:47
|I understand wat everyone is saying about not letting the dog drop the wood in front of you but he is not droping it until the "Click" which is his release and a cue he has done the correct behavior by holding the wood calmly and firmly and will do that until he hears the click. Now if he is droping it before the click then that can create a problem but I can have him hold for 10 min if I want. I am also going to the side of him and then clicking so I mix it up. I will switch over to a verbal cue eventually and bring the ball into the picture after I feel he really understands what is expected. In a trial he will never hear the click or a verbal so he will hold until I say "aus". THE one thing I won't do is out the dumbell while he is sitting in front, now that can cause problems. This method is working for me and my dog but that does not mean it is something others will do. As the saying goes " the 2 things a trainer can agree on is what the other is doing wrong" but I believe that what works for you and your dog is the best way.|
by steve1 on 02 January 2010 - 09:36
|Seems i had my thoughts wrong on this one I do not have any sound on my computer so there fore i thought you had a treat in your left pocket or hand i could not see a Clicker or here it|