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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > "needs more lay back" (21 replies)
"needs more lay back" by dAWgESOME on 15 November 2009 - 03:16 |
| what does that mean in regards to front angulation.....? Lower pasterns..  Calling all conform folks, need help with the lingo, thanks! |
dAWgESOME by VonIsengard on 15 November 2009 - 07:26 |
| Sounds to me like this is in regards to the shoulder? A correct lay of shoulder will result in a higher head carriage. Do you have a photo of the dog whom this critique was given, and a full critique? Taken out of context, I am only guessing. |
VonIsengard by Xeph on 15 November 2009 - 07:31 |
| Yes, it is in regard to proper angulation of the shoulder |
Xeph by Rik on 15 November 2009 - 18:13 |
| The "ideal" angle of the GSD shoulder (where the upper arm meets the shoulder blade) is a right angle. Lay back refers to the shoulder blade. Good lay back would be saying that the shoulder blade "angles" back from the sternum at the correct angle to contribute to a good "shoulder" angle. "needs more lay back" is just a way of saying that the shoulder blade is placed more in an upright position and needs to be placed further back. If you see a dog and think "What a short neck" it is most often caused by the blade being too upright and needing more "lay back". HTH, Rik |
by Ibrahim on 15 November 2009 - 22:12 |
| I read in explanation for the correct 90 degrees angle Rik mentioned above that it provides a longer reach, the lesser it is the the lesser reach made by the dog, sometimes due to the lesser angle the fore arm dos not reach beyound the dog's chin which is less than correct or preferable reach. Rik I hope what I said is correct, if I misunderstood what I read please correct me. Ibrahim |
by Rik on 16 November 2009 - 00:40 |
| Ibrahim. while the 90 degree angle is considered ideal, I don't think it shows up very often. Most are probably closer to a 100 degrees or so. If you look at the ASS (American show shepherd, sorry I can't stop laughing over this one) most will have a very poorly placed upper arm that contributes to a very wide angle. Yet even with this faulty construction many will have a phenomenal shoulder opening or front reach. I think that the angles specified in the standard are more what has been determined to allow the dog to trot all day herding rather than just to "reach". Rik |
by SitasMom on 16 November 2009 - 01:27 |
| ASS - American Show Shepherd - That's a good one! (LOL) |
by dAWgESOME on 16 November 2009 - 02:44 |
the comment being relative to the shoulder angle makes sense as it has been commented that she is a little short in front reach - so if I'm understanding this that is how it is realated. I do not have any recent properly stacked photos but here is a decent side shot of her standing. Thanks everybody! |
by VonIsengard on 16 November 2009 - 04:36 |
| If it helps, I have this picture of my Rikkor daughter as a puppy at a show where she was placed VP1. The judge (Ernst Ruckert, I think?) stated she had an excellent lay of shoulder, the day this photo was taken. Thanks Amy Prindiville for the photo.  |
by AandA on 16 November 2009 - 10:26 |
| The skeleton diagram on this very site is as good as anything in helping to understand the front assembly and lay of the shoulder see www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/structure_information/2.html Now imagine being able to move the joint of the strenum & shoulder blade backwards and forwards along the length of the dog. Pushing this point in, towards the rib cage, would increase the angle between the two and produce both a more vertical upper arm and shoulder blade i.e. less lay back. One of the consequences of this can be a reduced reach. Pulling this point out, away from the rib cage, will of course have the opposite affect. It will decrease the angle between the two and produce both a less vertical upper arm and shoulder blade i.e. more lay back. One of the consequences of this can be an improved reach. I find it's often easier to 'feel' the lay of the shoulder than try to see it as coats often have markings that can lead the eye astray. Cheers, AandA |
AandA by Ibrahim on 16 November 2009 - 18:18 |
| Thanks Rik, loud and clear. |
by Ibrahim on 16 November 2009 - 18:26 |
| KCzaja, I don't know how to put it in technical terms as the other guys do, but I feel (rather I see) Rikkor daughter is not only beautiful but EXT RA ORD INARY looking one, I wish I could put my hand on her strengths but I know she is special. Wish some one explains why she looks so beautiful yet strong, one feels she needs only a trigger from owner to fly. Ibrahim |
by sonora on 17 November 2009 - 01:29 |
Hi, It simply means that the lay of the shoulder blade is forward placed. |
by sonora on 17 November 2009 - 01:29 |
Hi, It simply means that the lay of the shoulder blade is forward placed. |
by VonIsengard on 17 November 2009 - 04:25 |
| Ibrahim, thank you. She is 7 years old now. She was (and on a good day still is) an exceptional mover. Her mother is a Neptun daughter, out of a Gorbi daughter. High drives. Unfortunately her hips are OFA moderate dysplasia. Very sad indeed. But I have not let her go to waste, she has excelled in obedience and personal protection, and she is of course my very dear friend. She has a litter sister who was OFA good, being bred untitled, but is not as good in structure. I hope the breeders are careful about health because their brother was put to sleep at a very young age due to severe elbow dysplaysia. I have learned to be very careful about Rikkor lines. |
by Rik on 17 November 2009 - 07:14 |
Rik |
by Rik on 17 November 2009 - 12:48 |
| sonora, I completely mis read your post. I tried to edit mine to reflect this, but couldn't for some reason. I should have said that you are correct in that the upper arm connects to the blade via the joint. Also a better description would probably be that the joint angles up and rearward from it's location in the fore chest area. sorry, Rik |
by Nans gsd on 25 November 2009 - 17:16 |
by Nans gsd on 25 November 2009 - 17:24 |
| IThe term layback means that the shoulder angle should be correct to the standard. If your breed standard states that your layback should be a 45 degree angle or a 40 degree angle, that is what the angle of the front shoulder should be. However, I prefer to see the front shoulder layback and rear angulation at similar degree's of depth; that is what makes a smooth gate, otherwise, with too much rear angulation and not enough front layback the dog outdrives his front with his rear feet, instead of them meeting in the midline, they will cross the midline, they have to, they have no place else for them to go. A great number of the german shepherds you see gating in those german show videos are way outdriving their front; however, they are also moving too fast for their bodies structure due to the fact that is how they are shown. A great book that explains front and rear angulations is "A dog in motion". You can apply this to any working dog; sporting, herding, working dogs in general. With little differences. That is how a dog moves. I hope this clarifies my comments. |
by AandA on 26 November 2009 - 15:25 |
| Nans, I have only really fully appreciated your comment about similar front and rear angulation with our present dog. He is by no means a world beater but he still has pretty good conformation and this balance can be clearly seen when he's asleep and lying on his side. In this totally relaxed position his limbs will fall in such a way as defined by his structure and he shows a number of parallel lines. The hock will be parallel to the shoulder blade, the tibula/fibula will be parallel to the upper arm (& to the back) and the femur will be parallel to the lower front leg. This I'm assuming is what you mean when you say the front and rear should have similar degree's of depth Funnily enough I have heard it been said that for a smooth gait the croup should also be at a similar angle as the lay of the shoulder but I've never really managed to see this as pretty much all sources maintain they should be around 30 & 45 degrees. Cheers, AandA |
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