I am glad than that there are people like you that are willing to help out. Withholding information or knowledge, is just not doing justice to the breed. After all that's why we have education system in place for humans, to learn from others rather than start from a scratch every time, humans would not progress if we would not share are knowledge, and this might be a very thing that is leading to issues within the breed. People will breed weather we like it or not, I would not want to do through trail and error.

Now you did bring out a good point, I understand that not every dog can reproduce a dog of his potential or better, but my believe is; you have to start with a good dog to begin, even better a pair of good dogs, and than research their genetic make up to determine where faults my lay in order to improve on that dog, what is your take on that?

Since you seen quite knowledgeable with regards to "z PS" lines would you be so kind as to share some information on

Tom Z ps,
&
Cordon An-Sat

I would really love to learn as much as I can with regards to these two great dogs.

Thank you for any valuable information you are willing to provide.
 

Aida vom Dukenheim:(Xena?)
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/475396.html  Let me say first.
I can go only on what you get me as a pedigree material.
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND!!!:
Here is  a example how pedigree data base info on pedigrees is not reliable. For example: Ben z Bolfu is HD 2/0 And not A(What ever 1/2 is?)You need ORIGINAL  copy of the pedigree IN ORDER TO EVELUATE THE PEDIGREES. I did changed Ben's hips to equivalent of a noch cugelassen. This wbsite does not provide for Czech evaluation.

We have here example of linebreeding and even inbreeding done well if you like super driven dog This pedigree is based on WUSV 1997, IPO3, SCHH3, ZM, ZVV3, ZPS1
SG Grim z Pohraniční stráže CS
1992
SZ 9110595
HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)

Undrescored by inbreeding on ZM ZVV1 FH2 SCHH3
Iwo von der Buschecke

and othe rexcellent driven dog


 Like the pedigree if you like high driven dogs.:1. Ben z Esagilu -> Grim, Orry -.> Grim and  Athos ->Grim connection(Athos was my dog. As you can see I took his pic in fromt of Sahuaro) Athos is who is who in z Pohranicni straze(z PS). He is pedigree wise perfect. Kaso z Ps linebreeding is good. Kasso was also driven dog small, died young of tortion. 

  Tanja La Grua has inbreeding on Iwo von der Buschecke and Mery z PS. That probably digged out some HD gene and show itself at Tanja La Grua HD B
 Then we have
Klara :Poor Hips, elbows, super hard popular bitch.

I would not linebreed any more on Grim and eliminate anything with Klara.  Through selecting breeding the bad hips were pushed down but may come up if you let it.
 This is all I can do today. Sorry guys, have to go claen dog shit.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

I will beg to differ with a few  things and first, Tom z Pohranicni Straze hips and elbows scoring I have not seen the bad hips and elbows at all and I am one that 1.  has visited czech and slovakia numerous times and detailed hundreds of dogs along with being invited to review production in the  Policia kennels.  The Blatenskeho zamku line does not show that to the extent either.  I have the numbers to be statistically significant  on this..  There are a few things that Hans is not sharing nor will I, (thank you Hans) of lines not to cross and so perhaps that is where people are seeing some problems.  (If you have ever seen a linebreeding on Mink, you understand)  A few of us that have taken the huge time and energy to learn this the old fashion way ( not by "internet research") and don't expect to give it up. 

Some  dogs did not produce at all here in the U.S and those are two of the dogs out west, (not with you Hans) 

I can appreciate what Hans is saying on many counts but the information and data I hold on Tom  and most of the Blatenskekho lines specifically shows an amazing number of good soundness.  (how was he crossed to get the bad stuff?)

Next, the Czech dog that we often see now has very much changed from the dog of the early 90's.  I'm sure I can get some agreement here from you old timers like me.  The new style dog was bred for sport purposes too and so more prey introduced and easier handlability.  (I think that is a word!)  

Maintaining old line bred dogs from Agar z Pohranicni Straze who was one of the last group to train in the Pohranicni Straze kennel before the country split in '91.  He is also by Gomo von Schiefferschloss, one of the foundation sires for the modern Czech German Shepherd, at that time.  Different work dog entirely from the sportier types today, not that the sportier types are bad, just different. 

I tried to attach pictures of a linebred Grim male along with a linebred Agar male to show the difference between the two.  Sorry, computer skills is something I can use help on.

The Arko Heky line I know well as these were Slovak not Czech lines.  Some of the Arko and Heky lines here in the US were crossed with some weak (in my opinion) East German lines and so a discussion of the real breed surveys on these east german dogs warrants a look.  On some of these East German dogs, Sharp was an attribute.  OUCH!  If you at the pedigrees of two dogs I had with Heky, both had and produced solid nerve and not this sharpness but those few weird East German dogs were not part of their pedigree.  Those solid nerved were Dick Bethme and Pascha Ga Ta.  I watched Heky work at  a nationals some decades back and he was one amazing dog and in my opinion, did not get enough good bitches to breed to because of economics of the country at the time. 



great discussion all,

Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com