German Shepherd Dog > Looking for info on Pohranicni Stranze (217 replies)
Looking for info on Pohranicni Stranze
by The Good Shepherd on 05 November 2009 - 17:47
I am trying to learn more about pedigrees and lines of dogs, so if anyone knows Pohranicni Stranze, Dero Cega and Gita Salrak (23082/86CKSP) please let me know! I am trying to learn by using Hubbies GSD. His pedigree can be found under:
Leopold von Lebold-Saiz
Thanks a bunch
by Prager on 06 November 2009 - 00:49
|"z Pohranicni straze" is a trade name of Czech border patrol. "z" means from. The Czech government does not breed under this name any more but controls it. (Nobody else can use it). First Czech dogs "z Pohranicni straze" were imported into USA by me :) about 30 years ago. Dogs were not registrable with AKC since the "z Pohranicni straze" breeding was registered by government entity and AKC recognizes only dogs registered by person.This also had been corrected by me and M Drew. Since we provided letter that proved to AKC who was actual breeder/person in thisd breeding program was. It was my friend Jiri Novotny. Jiri and I are now preserving,promoting, breeding, importing, selling and training these bloodlines. |
Here I go tooting my horn again. But it's all the honest to God truth.
by snajper69 on 06 November 2009 - 14:04
|Prager since you have the honor of knowing a person that been breeding some of the word best working dogs, would you be so kind as to share his idealogy behind his breeding methods. I myslef am big fan of the dogs that were registred under that trade name. Thanks.|
by The Good Shepherd on 06 November 2009 - 17:18
|Wow, Thanks for the website link, I now know where my next dog is coming from|
by Prager on 06 November 2009 - 18:09
|It is hard to mimic what we are doing. It is mainly based on knowledge of the dogs and bloodlines and few basic rules and gut feeling which stems out from long years of passion for working dogs and experience. Here are the some general rules:|
1. keep in mind the original purpose of the breed. WORK!
2. breed only the type of the dogs which fit that purpose. There is high emphasis on type breeding.
3.realize that there are no perfect dogs thus ->
4.make sure that you compliment ,or as I like to say dove tail, the pedigrees where you compensate for problems on one ped with virtues on the other. THUS LEARN TO COMPROMISE.
On the other hand.
5.Don't be afraid to take a risk and line breed on spectacular dogs even so you know that there may be a problem there.From such breeding be ready to eliminate the pups which do not fit your expectation and display the known problem. There will be some which do not display such problem select those for future breeding. Out cross it on the dog which is known to compensate on the known problem and also support the virtue which we desire of such breeding. If it does not work be not afraid to dump the line.
6.There is a strong accent on type breeding. Typy studly studs are the foundation. These are bred to strong females.
7.Know the virtues and problems of all the dogs on the pedigree.
THOROUGH knowledge of dogs on the pedigree is of out most importance.
8.Know the virtues and problems of each blood line.
9. Do not breed for extremes.
10.Do not get stuck on single one quality (like hips) by omitting the other trades.
There are two type of quality breedings.
1. Commercial. Where you find complimenting matched pair and keep breeding them until the end and produce consistent litters. This enhances the overall quality of the pool of GSD.
2. Progressive. Where you keep improving on the big picture of working dog. As soon as you get such improved pup, take it and "run" with it and continue to progress to next combination.
These are general rules.
by snajper69 on 06 November 2009 - 18:49
|When researching a dog in a pedigree, how do you go about that? I am always trying to learn about dogs in my dogs pedigrees but the info that I am getting is rather limited, as well is there a source when I can look for what the dogs actually produced? I am not a breeder, but I figure if I ever decide I would prefer to be ready rather than shoot in the dark. ;)|
by Prager on 06 November 2009 - 20:26
|To acquire the knowledge of the genetics of each dog on the pedigree is a problem. That is why it is very hard for people here to reproduce what we are doing. Many people think that if they buy excellent male and excellent female that they will reproduce excellent pups. Nothing is further from the truth. You need to "compliment" the pedigrees. I am constantly collecting data on different dogs and am traveling to Czech to see them in person and am consulting with Jiri my and his ideas on different combinations. My partner Jiri is breed warden and GSD judge and knows most dogs personally . The only way to do this properly for people like you is to buy from us or someone who is knowledgeable and willing to do this for you a genetically matched pair. I'll do it for my clients. Jiri is not that keen on doing it. Europeans are very secretive about this even among themselves. I am willing to do it only because I like GSD to be a great dog. I have started many breeding programs for other kennels. |
by snajper69 on 06 November 2009 - 20:44
I am glad than that there are people like you that are willing to help out. Withholding information or knowledge, is just not doing justice to the breed. After all that's why we have education system in place for humans, to learn from others rather than start from a scratch every time, humans would not progress if we would not share are knowledge, and this might be a very thing that is leading to issues within the breed. People will breed weather we like it or not, I would not want to do through trail and error.
by Prager on 07 November 2009 - 02:02
|Cordon is hard to fault.|
Tom Z PS line produced more bad hips and elbows then I like. He was a great worker very popular for that reason. I would not line breed on him. He is OK to have on the pedigree brings hardness and workability. But only as far as you know about his hips and elbows production. That is why you will not see too many linebreedings on Tom. Tom is son of Cordon and Cordon had no such problem. Thus if you look down on the mother of Tom; Axa z Blatenskeho Zamku her grand mother was Klara z Pohranicni straze. She was the culprit on bad hips and elbows. She was a supper worker very super hard bitch valued by border patrol for that and that is what Tom was so too. That is why she was popular and more importantly major studs who came out of her. Like Tom and super extra hard Gero z Blatenskeho zamku(again from Klara z PS) and others.
Gero z Blatenskeho zamku.
Tom z PS. Cordon
by Jyl on 07 November 2009 - 07:34
Thanks for all the information you have given. It is so nice to be able to come onto this site and see such informative posts like this one. I also like to see someone that is so devoted to the breed and wanting to preserve it like it should be.
I have 2 Czech females and would like to know what you think of their pedigrees?
This is Xena....
This is Annie....
by vvv79 on 07 November 2009 - 11:55
by Prager on 07 November 2009 - 18:01
|Iwo von der Buscheckeis in this pedigree about 5x|
I would not linebreed any more on Grim and eliminate anything with Klara. Through selecting breeding the bad hips were pushed down but may come up if you let it.
by Prager on 07 November 2009 - 19:07
|Grim z PSWUSV 1997, IPO3, SCHH3, ZM, ZVV3, ZPS1 Kkl 2|
by mollyandjack on 07 November 2009 - 20:33
|Very interesting thread, and thank you Prager for giving us some of your first-hand knowledge of Czech GSDs :) I always like to read about the Czech dogs, especially anything I can find on Gero....my dog looks an awful lot like him (except for being small..I've heard that Gero was on the large side for GSD? My dog is 65 lbs) and takes after the Czech side of his pedigree in temperament. |
by darylehret on 07 November 2009 - 23:31
I know multiple dogs carried the name Tom z Pohranicni straze, but this is not the one most of us are familiar with.
by snajper69 on 08 November 2009 - 02:52
|Thank you prager, much appreciated. One thing learned today for me, line breeding on tom bad idea ;)|
by duke1965 on 08 November 2009 - 09:57
|daryll thats a pic of Ikar , son of tom grandson of cordon|
the other tom is a grimm son , thats the only two I know of
I agree with most things what prager says about breeding , but respectfully disagree about linebreeding to certain dogs
you certainly can linebreed on certain dogs and loose the trait you dont want from the dog your linebreeding on , that is one of the great benefits of linebreeding , if you know how to use it
by nanu on 08 November 2009 - 14:52
I will beg to differ with a few things and first, Tom z Pohranicni Straze hips and elbows scoring I have not seen the bad hips and elbows at all and I am one that 1. has visited czech and slovakia numerous times and detailed hundreds of dogs along with being invited to review production in the Policia kennels. The Blatenskeho zamku line does not show that to the extent either. I have the numbers to be statistically significant on this.. There are a few things that Hans is not sharing nor will I, (thank you Hans) of lines not to cross and so perhaps that is where people are seeing some problems. (If you have ever seen a linebreeding on Mink, you understand) A few of us that have taken the huge time and energy to learn this the old fashion way ( not by "internet research") and don't expect to give it up.
by darylehret on 08 November 2009 - 15:46
|Thank you Hans and Nancy.|
We all realize there were some great dogs of the time to breed upon from the Czech and Slovak lines of those days, but I want to ask; Was there also as much crap to filter through as well, or was the overall quality of the breed in better condition than it is today? With the recent frequent use of popular sporting lines from west german workingline, and a lot more use of showline dogs than before, my perception is that the Cz. and Slovak lines have lost a great sense of overall identity that they had retained at the time. That breeders from the region lack a uniformity of goals, and less dependable quality is the result,
by nanu on 08 November 2009 - 18:02
|I think there are still the OLD breeders who have retained their sense of the original working dog. They just don't sell much if any, here. German show dogs were used 2 and 3 decades ago well. Those german showline dogs also competed as serious working dogs then.|
I think the past dog was more sound because most countrymen could not afford to breed if the dog could not produce. Many breeders here have difficulty putting personal feelings aside and have difficulty seeing the faults.
The identity has changed somewhat in that we have a branch of sport dogs. Not so much from income from the states but in the early years of the sport, Japan, Italy, Austria bought Czech dogs for a lot of money. Italy had several Ron von haus Bernhardt Mader (then on the Slovak team), and Pascha Ga Ta's sire's offspring regularly competing on their national team. Germany had Gent Policia as one of the most popular stud dogs in the 90's.
It was a fun time to watch competition because the overall strength of the dogs. Agbar Bethme was grand.
The true PS dogs were not subject to competition. The police dog trials was the place to see them. WOW. But these dogs are not for everyone.
I bought my first black russian terrier after watching one compete in police dog trial. It was an amazing dog in strength yet still very social and personable with his handler, but not a dog for everyone. They like to stop people.
We don't see dogs like Ciro Pohranicni Straze or Cordon An-Sat anymore. But in my opinion, there is still amazing quality out there, just more inexperienced breeders who think a pedigree is the end all and forget to look at the dog. (here)
Ok, enough of the memories!
Hans? You're a native and Jiri has long earned the reputation of a producer of dogs with ability to do the work.
One more thing. Can people entering their dog's pedigree in PD PLEASE do so correctly? Velmi dobry ( or dobry) is NOT part of the dog's name! Just my pet peeve. Hans you can offer a great deal of help here!