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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Sch, S/L W/L and the experts on this board.............. (37 replies)
by crhuerta on 25 September 2009 - 02:23 |
| Rik.....my dear...where have you been? missed ya! Your only having problems cause your dog is a (straight A student!!) Robin |
by Rik on 25 September 2009 - 03:25 |
| Hello Robin. I have been out taking vh williams advice. I only came in to change the band aids on my fingers. So far this bitch teaches me that if I will just drop the bait when she looks at it, then she does not have to administer a correction through my finger tips. She seems very pleased with my progress so far. Rik |
by Get A Real Dog on 25 September 2009 - 05:08 |
| Like Gustav says, when you lack knowlege and start spewing at the mouth, it makes you look silly. I talk smack about S/L dogs because all working people know the very good one's are few and far between and AS A WHOLE you can not even begin to compare S/L dogs to W/L dogs as far as quality goes. Are there ALOT of shitty W/L GSD's out there? Of course there are. As well as shitty Malinios, Dutch Shepherds, etc, etc. A good dog is a good dog. I personally have never seen a S/L dog that made me take a second look. Does not mean they are not out there. the fact that you saw 1 S/L dog win a Sch 1 at a club trial prompts you to spout off at the mouth makes you look silly. Anyone with any real experience knows a Sch 1 at a club trial is not something you would base the quality of a dog upon. If you were watching the trial and knew what you were looking at, it could give you an idea, but that is about it. Most knowlegeable people are quite aware that the dogs who win the trials, often times are not the dogs who possess the strongest character. Take a chill pill, open your ears and eyes, and listen a lot. If you stay with it and gain more exposure, you will then be able to tell the difference between the level of dogs and be able to weed through the bullshit on this (and other boards). It is easy for people who know a little something to determine who knows what they ar talking about and who is full of shit on dog boards. Until then, if you go running off at the mouth, you put yourself in the bracket as one of the one's who are ful of shit. |
by Rik on 26 September 2009 - 02:04 |
| Hello Gard, better late to the party than never. Piling on late is a 15 yard penalty, but you made some good points, so no flag. I think you said it better than my feeble attempt and to paraphrase, simply being from w/l is not a guarantee of a good sport dog, no more than being from s/l means a dog runs off the field. And please point out where I put forth the dog as anything other than a good performance on a club level. And talk about "spewing" guy you bring it to a new level. I'm taking notes. Can I ask where comes your knowledge to give advice to "silly" novices such as myself. Do you compete on a national level, world level. I recently made a donation to the WDA WUSV team. Are you there. Which are you. A world qualifier is a member of my club. I have spent quite a bit of time "picking" his brain. Asking a million "silly" novice questions. He has answered every one. Told me how he reached his goals and what it takes to get there. Never once advised me to take a chill pill, never once slandered any dog or it's breeding. Told me right up front,"don't ask me about pedigrees, I don't give a s***. Just show me the dog". And those were his exact words. Told me how and where to get a top dog, advised me to keep training the dog I have now until I have the skills to not "waste" a top dog. And this is the absolute kicker you will never believe, told me how he was once novice. Started training with the same club that I now join. His first dog and efforts did not put him on the world team. Imagine that. And here is the most unbelievable part to me. In all these conservations with him, he never mentions you or your mentor Gustav, who never miss an opportunity to tell novice people how novice or how stupid they are. Who must "bite their tongue" because a novice GSD person makes a novice observation and wishes to engage in "novice" talk and novice learning. I can not believe how some here have such an exaggerated opinion of themselves as "keepers of the breed" that they must attack every view that does not align with their own. So here is my invitation to you, since the first of the year, I have shown dogs in N.C., IL. MS. before the end of the year, I will be in TX., La., Oh. and Ca. Will start over in Jan. I am not as novice and silly as you may imagine. Surely one of these locations will be near enough to you that you can administer a "chill" pill personally. Best, Rik |
by Gustav on 26 September 2009 - 03:15 |
| Rik, First off I am no one's mentor. Second, if you read my posts you will see that I usually posts about things I am familar with from experience and participation. I donot posts on who are the successful S/L dogs in the ring either German or American. Why??? because I am not current on that and have not been to many conformation shows in recent years, I donot comment on Sch trials in general,(though I have attended trials at every level for the past twenty years and have titled dogs), because I am not currently engaged in Sch club or training as our Club is a SDA club. Furthermore, there is much much more to dog breeding and training,(which I usually post about), then national level sch. You don't think Herding, military, SAR, and police training will allow you to assess a dog. You don't think that successfully producing dogs for these venues allows you to understand these aspects? Over the years I have learned what I know from experience and studying, and I have also learned what I don't know and in those cases I look, learn, and listen, before I make proclaimations. I have too many novices that pm to me thanking me for the information I post, they don't seem to be offended by my posts, but maybe they are trying to learn instead of lecturing others. I would never challenge you about the American showring and if I did you would have every right to show me my lack of knowledge or ignorance. Fortunately, I wouldn't be that arrogant, as i only know these dogs for what I see in working areas of which I am familar and they are scarce. YOU started this posts with ranting and ravings that over time you will be enlightened to. To make me the heavy because i called you on what you posted that is weak, is not my problem, nor am I dumping on a novice. Finally, I ask you to go back and read your original post and ask yourself if this type of assertions should come from an experienced person or a novice?? In closing, you can think what you want about me, doesn't affect me, change what i know, or change what you don't know....peace! |
by Gustav on 26 September 2009 - 03:28 |
| Yo folks, I have given some more thought to Rik's post and feelings about my views. Maybe he has a point, maybe it is time for me to let others on this board step to mentoring plate. I think I will take a fall and winter vacation from this board as it appears some are getting weary of my opinions and or facts. Maybe, I am not in touch with the real german shepherds of today and am missing their attributes. Either way, I will take a vacation from the board so as to not stifle the growth of others on this board...peace....blessings! |
by SitasMom on 26 September 2009 - 04:18 |
| "A world qualifier is a member of my club. I have spent quite a bit of time "picking" his brain. Asking a million "silly" novice questions. He has answered every one. Told me how he reached his goals and what it takes to get there. Never once advised me to take a chill pill, never once slandered any dog or it's breeding. Told me right up front,"don't ask me about pedigrees, I don't give a s***. Just show me the dog". And those were his exact words. Told me how and where to get a top dog, advised me to keep training the dog I have now until I have the skills to not "waste" a top dog. And this is the absolute kicker you will never believe, told me how he was once novice. Started training with the same club that I now join. His first dog and efforts did not put him on the world team. Imagine that. " The world of Schutzhund needs more people like this, an expert that takes time to help others without making them feel stupid....... |
by Rik on 26 September 2009 - 04:27 |
| Gustav, you post many things that make me think how much we have in common. You know Ralph Roberts from his every month ads in the "little" GSD review" I agree very much with Ralph that he checks every tail at every national that he judges to insure they are not "fixed". I respect him very much for this. I do not agree so much that he has the only issue with Robert and puts him and Andrettii out of business. I trust Mary 100% as to integrity. But here is where I form my opinion of you. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/14399.html Here is a very obvious attempt from a very obvious novice person to very obviously understand, explain and discuss the GSD. And what do you do you do with your years of experience with the decline in the Am. GSD and your understanding of what a GSD should be. You "LOL" at him. You could have as easily explained to him how years of "single" purpose breeding of the Am. GSD has led to a practically useless dog. You could have explained how the German S/L seems to be following very closely in the same direction that you have seen the Am. S/L take. (side gait only) Instead, you choose to boast endlessly of your very "minor" success in Sch. Blast anyone "novice" who wishes to learn what a real GSD" is and make the transition from the POS Am. Shepherd and the POS direction that the German S/L is headed in. Really, you have much knowledge and instruction to give concerning the direction of the GSD in the U.S.. Run off and hide if you wish. Or stay here and share the years of experience that you have. Makes no difference to me. l met my goals with the Am. S/L many years ago and I can assure both you and the faker GARD that I can meet my goals with both the German S/L and German W/L. Rik |
by steve1 on 26 September 2009 - 05:45 |
| Rik If you have a world qualifier in your Club then stick with him for whatever anyone may say they are at the peak of the sport. There is no comparision to a normal Club Dog and handler in the Schutzund sport to one of National level, if there were then everyone would be at that level are very few Dogs and handlers are, But for most people Club level is enough and of course without these people the sport would not exsist so all are badly needed, But you are indeed lucky to have such a Guy to help you out, so foster it and you will benifit greatly from it Steve |
steve1 by Rik on 26 September 2009 - 06:18 |
| steve, I can assure that a WDA world qualifier is a member of my club. Also that his dog suffered an injury and that his alternate has also trained at my club (and was coached by the original) , is in my region, and has now replaced him on the WDA U.S. team. The original is a relentless trainer with a relentless drive to surceased. He evaluated me and my dog, advised me to keep training the dog I have (I wanted to replace), until I understand training. Then move on to a better dog when I am not the weak link. He now has a new dog and I will be very surprised if you do not know of him in the next couple of years. I will PM you if you wish to know more. Rik |
by Get A Real Dog on 26 September 2009 - 06:44 |
Wow someone's panties got in a MAJOR wad on this one I am a little confused. You start this thread with major attitude, state you are a novice, make some statements (maybe you were typing fast due to your frustration level) demonstrating you inexperience, then proclaim most of us as full of shit? Even though I agree that most of the hard-chargers on this board nowdays are pretty much full of shit, I just pointed out you are a pot calling the kettle black. I tried to put it in as nice a context as I could as well. As far as my experience and acomplishments, I don't feel the need to spout out my resume but I have trialed (and won)on a national level (albiet in a small venue "alternative bite sport") as well as regional level in another "alternative bite sport" (PSA), and titled a dog in French Ring (by far the most difficult of dog sports IMO) trained with national level trainers and decoys, trained multiple venues, police service, yada, yada, yada. By doing that all I do is open myself up to critisim from the Sch lovers who feel all other sport venues are inferior. But I digress. I took a long break from dog training and am now training a few dogs that are less than spectacular genetically. My absence, the ever evolving world of dog training, and beat up body, means I will probably never reach the level of performance and ability I reached, or could have reached, 10 years ago. Such is life and I have never said I am the world's greatest dog trainer. With that said, the main point I was trying to make is people who do know a little about what they are talking about can spot the ones who don't a mile away. I once got into a pretty good "heated" discussion (in person, not on a dog board) about table training with a trainer who once qualified for the world team. I am sure he thinks I am a complete idiot. I am also fairly confident this guy would not have the foggiest idea how to train a dog to engage the correct decoy in a senario involving 4 active decoys in close quarters, or how to train a dog to take the pivot leg to avoid an esquive (are you familiar with that term?) in ring sport. So who is the better trainer, the one who qualified once for a world team or one who may not have such a prestigious accomplishment but is familiar with a variety of training technuiqes and applications? The answer should be it doesn't matter, they should respect and try to learn from each other. In today's world of money making "dog clubs" and big egos that is just not the reality. This is one of my biggest issues in the dog world. Dog trainers often care more about being "right" or "better" than they do about teaching others what they know. Combine that with the those who don't know shit but choose to run their fingers across a keyboard proclaiming they do, and you find the problem with dog discussion forums. Dog trainers argue, think their dog, breed of dog, sport of choice, training method, etc is the greatest. It is the nature of the beast. If you have the opportunity to train with a world or national level trainer. Good for you milk him for all the knowlege he is willing to give you. For the record Gustav is one of the more knowlegable people who still post here on a regular basis. For you not to recognize that shows you don't really know a whole lot yet. When you demonstrate that fact and attack someone like Gustav, you only discredit yourself in the eyes of the people do recognize his knowlege and experience. It is the people like you who have unfortunately pushed all of the knowlegable people off this board. Good luck to you in acomplishing your goals. PS The distance a dog leaves the ground to |
by Get A Real Dog on 26 September 2009 - 06:57 |
...."participate in the game" can be quite indicitive to the character of a dog or qualities it may possess.  |
by Rik on 26 September 2009 - 07:22 |
| GARD, you have never seen a day that you can put my panties in a wad. There is no way I spend the time to read this drivel you post. My whole purpose in this thread was directed at Gustav, because I recognize where he comes from and where I come from are similar. I can assure you that whether he and I ever agree on anything, we start from the same place. Am S/L. and in our own different ways have the same goals. The GSD in the U.S.and it's direction. Gustav, I can respect, because I know where he is coming from and where he has been, and also much of what has formed his opinion of those who direct the future of the GSD. He bailed long before me, but I did see the light. So please spare me your knowedlege of the GSD. I can do no more than tell you where I have been and where I will be. I invite and would love the opportunity for your opinons "face to face". Truly, what "silly, novice" things I do with the GSD in the U.S. , I do "coast to coast". I can assure you that in the next 12 months I will be close enough to your fake A** that you can tell me your views face to face if it means that much to you. Rik |
by Get A Real Dog on 26 September 2009 - 07:39 |
| Well again, you lack of knowlege about me, or your lack of attention to detail, shows again. I have never proclaimed my knowlege of the GSD breed. I have owned a total of one GSD my entire life. I am a Malinios guy. I find it interesting you blast Gustav in one post but then "respect" him and blast me. Indicitive of a cyclical mood disorder  Explaining my views to you are not all that important to me. I am always willing to try and teach people what I know if they are willing to listen. If you ever make it out to Northern Ca. You are more than welcome to come to the little school where I train with my little unorganized group, and I can work your dogs if you wish. A/S, WG/S, W/L , heinz 57 mutt, I don't care as long as it works. I will however require you to check your ego at the gate. Take care. |
by Rik on 04 October 2009 - 05:06 |
| GARD, I am going to say this as slowly and as correctly as I can. I have many years with the GSD in the U.S. My "learning curve" has taken me from exhibiting/showing AKC Champions in the U.S. to trying to determine what a "REAL' GSD is. This involved a trip to the German Sieger Show in Aachen (2008) and a tour of German kennels/breeders afterward. I very much wish to identify what a real "GSD" is and despite your USER NAME, I have not identified you as a source of information to assist me with my quest. If I am mistaken, then please correct me. Have you finished any GSD to Sch. 3. Have you placed any dogs in SAR, guide for blind, any Police Service in any country, really anything to justify your handle "GARD": I'm calling you out as a FAKER, who has never accomplished anything with the GSD in any country and any venue AKC, WDA, UScA, SV, agility, dock jumping. anything. What the F***, you name it. Show me what you have done with a GSD. Until then, I am placing you with the resident "SHILOH" lady on this board. RIK |
by Slamdunc on 04 October 2009 - 22:49 |
| RIK, I'm jumping in here late. But how hard is it to find a real GSD? I can assure you that you won't find it in American S/L's as you know. You said you train with some "world level competitors" don't they have real GSD's? You have experience with S/L dogs both AM and German. Yes, you can find some nice German Show line dogs that work, but it's a lot harder than it was 15 or 20 years ago. If you want a real GSD it's in the working lines as GARD said. A good working dog is a good working dog regardless of lines. I just spent a week at a Police and Military work dog training seminar. 50 handler teams from across the state and some DOD dogs. I am a long time GSD guy, starting with AM S/L in the 80's, moving to SchH and working dogs in the early 90's. After what I saw this week my next police dog may very well be a Mali. There are reasons our special forces and DOD guys only use Mali's, and I can't argue. I have a very "real" GSD, a dog with national level SchH ability who is my Police dog. Great dog, great GSD but I want a mali after what I have seen over the past year. This week convinced me. For sport I'll stick with a "real GSD", for the street my next dog will be a mali unless I find another super GSD. I have always said there are "real" GSD's out there, you just have to know where to look and what to look for. FWIW, Jim |
Slamdunc by Slamdunc on 04 October 2009 - 23:36 |
| Rik, I guess the question is; do you know what a real GSD is? What is your definition of a real GSD? Would you know what to do with a real GSD if you were lucky enough to own one? I know what my definition of a real GSD is; but it is my opinion and my personal preference and it may be different than yours. I place temperament, working ability, drives over color and structure. I lie a dog with nice conformation, but I'll take an ugly dog that works over a black and red S/L dud with marginal drives any day. Now, give me a serious, hard, civil V rated dog (of any color) and I'm very happy, that's a real GSD, IMO. Please, is a Sch. trail the ultimate judge of a "real" GSD. I think many of you are full of shit because you think the value of a GSD is how far he leaves the ground towards the sleeve while participating in a game. SchH is not the ultimate judge of a "real" GSD, but it is a good baseline. You can learn alot about a dog's temperament by watching a dog work. Not just in bite work but in obedience as well. Sometimes OB is more telling than bite work. At least the SV unlike the AM S/L breeders have requirements. It is better than nothing and this has been proven with the AM GSD. As you learn more about drives and temperament you will be better able to judge a dogs character by the depth of grip on a sleeve and how it launches into the sleeve. The grip is a window into the dogs mind and a trained person can tell a lot about a dog from the grip. Once you gain more experience with working dogs you will appreciate the subtleties that show up in bite work. Also, not all SchH dogs treat it as a game and not all people treat it like a game. I know a lot of people who train their dogs very seriously in the sport and their National level dogs will bite you with or with out a sleeve. It's not a game for everyone or every dog. Once again, I will say it is the dog and the handler's commitment that determines the outcome. That is a partly true statement, but genetics, nerves and drives play a very important part in the outcome as well. FWIW, Jim |
by windwalker18 on 05 October 2009 - 05:21 |
| ".Records live--Opinions die." I believe was the motto of Ann Mesdag of Von Nassua kennel... Or of Mary and Ralph Roberts of Covina Kennels, can't remember which.. I think it was the Roberts. Both kennels imported a number of dominate studs from Germany in the 50's and 60's, and used them in their breeding programs... here's a link with some of the info I ran across. www.freedogadvice.com/Echoes%20of%20the%20past.htm |
windwalker18
Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!