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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > showline bred with workingline (440 replies)
by maywood on 09 August 2010 - 17:56 |
| I hate to kick a dead horse, but again, you must be extra careful that you don't "break" your dog to begin with. This stuff is serious business and you can ruin your dog for life if you don't take extra precautions. If you aren't physically able to do this, because yes it is very hard on you and the animal, then I would suggest having someone else do this for you. Better not to do it all then to take any chances. |
maywood by Jeff Oehlsen on 09 August 2010 - 18:49 |
| Quote: Jeff Oehlsen, I looked at your new dog and want to wish you the best. Be very careful though when you breed your "shitter", Well, which is it ? You wishing me the best, or calling the dog a shitter ?? LOL So tell me your experiences as a breeder with those lines you were just talking about. Your experiences and what problems you had with breeding to quanto and canto. After all, they were born in what, the late 60's ?? LOL The fathers line is posted, unless you are talking about a different dog. I have more than one dog, gotta be more specific. Look at the crap Molly was so good to show us. The helper doesn't look at the dog, and the dog has probably done this for his food for the past year or so. Well below average. I have not seen a dog look that uncomfortable in a long time. |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 09 August 2010 - 18:54 |
| Quote: First of all I don't necessarily condone attaching your dog to the back of the truck and trying to improve their conditioning in this manner. To me, this is a form of animal abuse. THis is the kind of freak assholishness that irritates the everloving fuck out of me. Having never done this type of training, this person not only runs off at the mouth about it, but then adds that it is abuse. Ever wonder why the breed is in trouble ? Here is your personality type that drives them into the ground. Every dog is precious as well right ?? Such bullshit. Fuck a dog if it breaks. |
by maywood on 09 August 2010 - 19:39 |
| You don't scare me with your tough talk punk! It is obvious you have no clue what you are talking about. And thank you for telling everyone you hate dogs and have no respect for them. That ought to give everyone a nice heads up not to let Jeff Oehlsen "EVALUATE" your dogs. You offer nothing to this conversation. Move along little doggy. |
by Jacko on 09 August 2010 - 19:53 |
| Dary, I enjoyed talking with you on this thread. Look forward in the future on other topics. I love my reality. I have had great dogs with great breedings and wonderful breeders. I am done with this thread. |
Jacko by Silbersee on 09 August 2010 - 20:26 |
| Jeff Oehlsen, you know that I am writing abou your new dog Basco you mentioned about 10 days or so ago. Please do not get evasive. And are you really trying to tell me that you don't know anything about Canto and Quanto vd Wienerau? If that is the case, you should in the future refrain from bashing showlines as these two dogs are almost singlehandedly responsible for creating the modern showlines. Your dog has the same linebreedings like most of the showlines a few generations back. As a matter of fact it seems that these French lines were built on that. That is why you get this nice "gay floatish show coat" (or something like that). Mix a bit of workinglines in there and voila: You have a cross as well, lol! Anyway, if you wish to find out more about these two pilars (two of four), go and search the message list here or check Malcolm Willis' book out: "A Genetic History". Anybody who intends to breed German Shepherd Dogs should at least have some basic knowledge of the four pilars of the modern dog. Lines which do not have these four included are the AKC lines and to some extent the old East German lines and some Czech. Workinglines are based on Mutz and Marko, showlines almost exclusively Canto and Quanto with a bit of Mutz and almost no Marko. And I do wish you the best with your dog and I never call any dog a "shitter" regardless of what breed or individual. No dog deserves that. I merely quoted you. Chris |
Silbersee by Steve Schuler on 09 August 2010 - 21:38 |
| A very worthwhile thread to read that is pertinent to this discussion for those who may have missed it or, as in my case, were not hanging out here at that time, is a topic entitled, "CANTO QUANTO MIX - Legendary History of the GSD Breed". Check it out if you are interested. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/29380.html?pagen=1 SteveO |
Steve Schuler by Jeff Oehlsen on 09 August 2010 - 21:53 |
| Quote: I never call any dog a "shitter" regardless of what breed or individual. No dog deserves that. I merely quoted you. I have seen many many shitters. They completely deserve it, and so does their breeder. How much influence does a dog have from 30 years ago ? None. I guess you never thought of that. Oooops. LOL So, lets take the last 5 generations, and you point out all the show dogs. I have a french line dog named Esko, and his pedigree is not complete, where Basco's is. So, there was some confusion. Then, bust out some recent show crosses that are FR3. That will be fun to check out. You are talking about dogs when you mention Quanto and Canto that have been dead for a couple of decades or so. Ever notice those pedigrees that have a percentage number by them ? Where do you think a dog that is 7 8 9 generations backs percentage will be ? The other thing is how big of balls people on here have to compare themselves as breeders to anyone in EU. That cracks me up. Oh I can cross shitter with WL and I will get fantastic, as long as I am the only one that is looking at it. LOL It has been too long. I know of some show dogs way the fuck back that have influenced very nicely the working lines, but recently ?? THe dog would probably be quietly put to sleep. : ) |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 09 August 2010 - 21:53 |
| Quote: I never call any dog a "shitter" regardless of what breed or individual. No dog deserves that. I merely quoted you. I have seen many many shitters. They completely deserve it, and so does their breeder. How much influence does a dog have from 30 years ago ? None. I guess you never thought of that. Oooops. LOL So, lets take the last 5 generations, and you point out all the show dogs. I have a french line dog named Esko, and his pedigree is not complete, where Basco's is. So, there was some confusion. Then, bust out some recent show crosses that are FR3. That will be fun to check out. You are talking about dogs when you mention Quanto and Canto that have been dead for a couple of decades or so. Ever notice those pedigrees that have a percentage number by them ? Where do you think a dog that is 7 8 9 generations backs percentage will be ? The other thing is how big of balls people on here have to compare themselves as breeders to anyone in EU. That cracks me up. Oh I can cross shitter with WL and I will get fantastic, as long as I am the only one that is looking at it. LOL It has been too long. I know of some show dogs way the fuck back that have influenced very nicely the working lines, but recently ?? THe dog would probably be quietly put to sleep. : ) |
by Jacko on 09 August 2010 - 21:58 |
| Dary, I enjoyed talking with you on this thread. Look forward in the future on other topics. I love my reality. I have had great dogs with great breedings and wonderful breeders. I am done with this thread. |
by Jacko on 09 August 2010 - 21:58 |
| Dary, I enjoyed talking with you on this thread. Look forward in the future on other topics. I love my reality. I have had great dogs with great breedings and wonderful breeders. I am done with this thread. I should blame my computer for posting this 3 times.lol |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 09 August 2010 - 21:59 |
| Quote: You don't scare me with your tough talk punk! It is obvious you have no clue what you are talking about. And thank you for telling everyone you hate dogs and have no respect for them. That ought to give everyone a nice heads up not to let Jeff Oehlsen "EVALUATE" your dogs. You offer nothing to this conversation. Move along little doggy. So, how many dogs have you worked behind a truck ? I did it for years. Don't just start squawking, let me hear your experience with this. I want to know your firsthand experience. I get sick of repeaters, or people that had one shit dog and it broke, so all the rest of us are judged by one persons crap dog and their experience with it. I have ran dogs behind trucks, bikes, and just ran with them. How many do you think are breaking ? WHere is all the abuse coming from ? I love that automatic assumption. You know, I do things different from you, so fuck you, you are an abuser, and a dog hater. |
by maywood on 09 August 2010 - 23:50 |
| I learned a long time ago there is no reasoning with MAD men. So I am not even going to try. If you don’t find truth in my words or in between the lines I write then simply ignore them. There is no reason to carry on screaming, yelling, and cussing like a spoiled little child. Talk about manning up! I am quite comfortable in my own skin and in the knowledge I possess. As the old saying goes, “Don’t give your pearls to pigs children.” Take it or leave it man, it is that simple. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else for that matter. |
by Rik on 10 August 2010 - 02:25 |
| dayrlehret said "but I am saying no one has the discipline or the resources to make it succeed." the more you run that yakker, the more your ignorance shows. You have dogs that you don't trial or title, much less breed survey and you are an authority on the GSD. You are offering up advice on what is and is not possible and you have accomplished what, other than buy foundation dogs from breeders who do trial and title, and begin selling pups. The dog von Lotta posted shows that someone had the "discipline and resources" to produce him. And you want to debate and educate a breeder who had the "discipline and resources" and also the knowledge to bring arguably one of the best producing working bitches ever to come to the U.S. You really need to get out of Montana more often and see what is going on in the world. JMO, Rik |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 10 August 2010 - 02:53 |
| Quote: I learned a long time ago there is no reasoning with MAD men. So I am not even going to try So, that is your answer ? Not, well Jeff, I used to run my dogs like that and had ____ problems with _______ lines. Just as I thought. When pinned down for an answer that requires actual experience, you prove without a shadow of a doubt that you have none, and are just repeating what you have been told. As far as not having to prove anything, then why be bothered to respond ? After all, you have nothing to prove....... like running dogs is ABUSE. LOL As far as being MAD ?? What are you, mental ? I laugh at people most of the time that flip out, as what you read and how you take things is based on your perception of the world. I am not unhappy, other than maybe the fact that people like you spread crap like running dogs behind a truck is abuse. That bothers me a little, but where I differ from what your perception of me is, I find it amusing to call people like you out. People that have no experience, but want to flap their mouths about how horrible something is, when it is not horrible at all. You don't have any actual experience. Don't respond, when you don't know the truth. |
by Jeff Oehlsen on 10 August 2010 - 02:54 |
| Quote: I learned a long time ago there is no reasoning with MAD men. So I am not even going to try So, that is your answer ? Not, well Jeff, I used to run my dogs like that and had ____ problems with _______ lines. Just as I thought. When pinned down for an answer that requires actual experience, you prove without a shadow of a doubt that you have none, and are just repeating what you have been told. As far as not having to prove anything, then why be bothered to respond ? After all, you have nothing to prove....... like running dogs is ABUSE. LOL As far as being MAD ?? What are you, mental ? I laugh at people most of the time that flip out, as what you read and how you take things is based on your perception of the world. I am not unhappy, other than maybe the fact that people like you spread crap like running dogs behind a truck is abuse. That bothers me a little, but where I differ from what your perception of me is, I find it amusing to call people like you out. People that have no experience, but want to flap their mouths about how horrible something is, when it is not horrible at all. You don't have any actual experience. Don't respond, when you don't know the truth. |
by Silbersee on 10 August 2010 - 03:01 |
| Jeff Oehlsen, I do not know any FR3 dogs, crosses, workinglines or showlines., sorry. It is not my sport, so I do not pay any attention. It looks impressive and more power to you that you are active in it. Since I do not know anything about it, I do not pretend to act like a know-it-all and shut my mouth in these discussions (just like people who do not know anything about this subject here ought to stay out of it as well). I am from the EU (as you put it) but in my geographical area, nobody is involved in French Ring or Mondio, everybody just does Schutzhund. Please ask darylehret since he is so knowledgable in genetics if Canto and/or Quanto Wienerau still matter or not. I say yes, they certainly do. It is not just "a" dog showing up in the 7th or 8th (or even further back) generation. It is the amount of times these dogs show up, Jeff. Sometimes as often as 10 or more times!!! And if you want to tell me that this does not influence anything, I have to say that you are wrong! So, no oops on my side. I am well aware how long ago this era has been. But even Vello Sieben-Faulen and his sons (Lierberg) still have a lot of influence on our breed today. And just because of that, I strongly believe that you can develop nice dogs out of carefully chosen crosses. Look at your dog's pedigree. Every time, the breeders went to a German workingline it was an outcross. They do work if a breeder is patient and thinks in generations. How do you think the breed was developed or to keep it simple, your french ring lines came into existence? It took breeders with hindsight and talent. And yes, it is true that one or two by themselves can't do it, but rest assured these crosses are being done on both sides. They are just not being publicized too much. I do have to agree with you on what you said about the recent showlines (at least I think that is what you said - you cuss too much, has anybody ever told you that?): They have become too soft in their ability to withstand pressure as an average, but this problem has been known and it will be fixed. Conformationwise, there have been some problems creeping up as well. Recently, there have been concerns about the lower thigh becoming too long (similar to the AKC lines), the rear angulation too exaggerated and the back too curved, in addition to a lot of the dogs being oversized. However, you can not reverse trends overnight with one generation but you have to consistently work on it. That is why the SV breed wardens and judges meetings are so important - for guidelines. These guidelines address everything - anatomy and temperament. Naturally, sports people have a different outlook than breeders. A reputable breeder thinks in generations and what is best for the breed and not a fashion, a sports person just tries to find a good candidate to compete with. Chris |
by VonIsengard on 10 August 2010 - 04:06 |
Rik  Chris, you invaluable knowledge is lost here. Ultimately, you're the one producing titled, V rated, KKL1 dogs here, both show and work. A good dog speaks for itself and you have nothing to prove. |
VonIsengard by Jeff Oehlsen on 10 August 2010 - 05:04 |
| Quote: Sometimes as often as 10 or more times!!! And if you want to tell me that this does not influence anything, I have to say that you are wrong! So, no oops on my side. How are you seeing this influence 30 years later ? I did not see either dog 10 times on my dogs pedigree. Unless the dogs in question were heavily inbred for generations on either Quanto, or Canto, you are not going to see that influence from those dogs. However, you might see an influence on the breeders to want that "look" or some other ideal that the dogs in question made them think about and like a lot. Cursing will set you free man, feel free to say it. FUCK ! ! ! ! : ) Quote: Look at your dog's pedigree. Every time, the breeders went to a German workingline it was an outcross. More importantly, what was it that they saw in these outcrosses ? THAT is what I look at. I am not seeing this show line stuff occurring in several generations. The problem with the using a showline, is what are the odds that the dog will produce like him/her self in future generations, and how much greater are the odds that the dogs will actually take away from the working line ? I just don't see any reason to hop around because you made average dogs that look funny in the ass end. Then, you have to hope that future generations are at least what the former generation is, and that does not occur very often. Breeding is a scale. You start with shit, and that is your "10" everything from then on will try and go back to average. What is the average of fuck all ? : ) Quote: And yes, it is true that one or two by themselves can't do it, but rest assured these crosses are being done on both sides. They are just not being publicized too much. It would still show up in the pedigree, and I am positive that the show people would use them in their arguements. I actually know a few show dogs that produced very well, but who on here is bringing them up ? This is what the problem is with many that argue here on this board. They really are either fantasizing, or repeating what they thought that they heard, or are just such big fans of the show line that they will become rabid, and argue without any logic, or proof. I have been a breeder, and I have taken risks, and bred and culled many pups. Not the GSD, but the principles work regardless of breed. Then I come on forums like this, and hear absolute bullshit being spread as the gospel truth. Maybe in EU they are crossing, but here they will take this, and their lack of knowledge of dogs, and screw the whole thing up. LOL WAY too many soft people here to actually breed correctly. Look at the silly statement about road working your dogs is abuse. They are not looking to create their own masterpiece, they are looking to create that ONE litter. They have a stud from the EU for 5 years, and then they buy another............ from the EU. Think about that. They do not create their own, they just bobble along getting new blood from overseas, as it sell better here. There is almost NO WAY to compete against that here in the US. Our working dog clubs are few and far apart, with a few exceptions. It is very expensive, and I do Mondio, so there is fuck all for trials in this country, unless you have the money to wander the earth. Even then, there are still way to few. I am not making fun, it is just a fact. Almost every judge I have talked to has said that if he lived here, he would not travel that far to work his dogs. That is the OE advantage that EU has over us. Proximity. Quote: I do have to agree with you on what you said about the recent showlines (at least I think that is what you said - you cuss too much, has anybody ever told you that?): They have become to |
by maywood on 10 August 2010 - 05:16 |
| You little pipsqueek, I've been running with dogs since my wrestling days in college. You don't know shit about real road work. All you know how to do is run your mouth and try to belittle people. We ought to tie your ass to the back of a truck and drag your ass down the road and see how you like it. Keep talking smartass your only embarassing yourself. |
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