German Shepherd Dog > showline bred with workingline (440 replies)
by Felloffher on 06 August 2010 - 21:55
by Silbersee on 06 August 2010 - 21:57
you are absolutely right! There are some hideous looking showlines out there as well! Just like some workinglines! But it is certainly not the law of natural selection which dogs should be bred and which not! A conscientious breeder uses healthy and titled dogs which are presented to a breed surveyor (Koermeister) and are rated by their temperament and structure!
That is the only way to select dogs suitable for breeding! It should never be left up to individual breeders who feel that their animals are so great that they do not need to be titled or don't need to be shown. The poor and often uninformed puppy buyers will often pay the ultimate price. That is why these complaints keep popping up here. There are too many dogs waiting for homes out there anyway, just ask people like Steph.
Regarding my exchange here with darylehret: I hate negativity and feel that people who have nothing good to say should just stay off the topic but somehow they love the controversy they create. It kills a good discussion and people with some legitimate concern or knowledge decide to stay away.
BTW, Sugarbear: Take a look at my homepage and tell me if you really think that my workinglines look all that different than my showlines? Not really, eh! The reason is that I require my WL to be V-rated and my showlines to be balanced.
by Felloffher on 06 August 2010 - 21:58
Love the 1966 Sieger, and you illustrate what I was saying. These days this dog would be seen by either 'side' as mediocre.
Show me how this dog is mediocre in the working world? This dog looks like many of the KKl.1 working dogs we see today.
by charlie319 on 06 August 2010 - 22:04
|Calling your adversary names in an argument is not likely to sway opinions. I will agree that three to four decades of breeding won't be undone overnight, but to return to the original concept of a dog that can do it all, will require some things that are not likely to happen. It would require for sables and black dogs to be given a fair chance at competing in the show-ring, and it would require a change in the emphasis of working lines trials to require a dog that is more in keeping with the original make-up. It will also require that breeders breed for more than a handful of features and look to breed a more complete dog.|
Culling the SL dogs could only contribute to the demise of the breed by making the genetic pool even more shallow and narrow.
Basko was a fine example of the breed, and in today's reality he'd be considered a marginal competitor in SL and might not be be likely to have a chance in today's WL circles.
by Sugarbear on 06 August 2010 - 22:51
|felloffher- please don't miscast me as a proponent of the sv or s/l dogs as a whole. I agree with your take on how we got here, but i don't think you offer a realistic solution, but an idealstic one. Silbersee, i am quite familiar with your dogs, in fact, had some dialogue with you about purchasing Pia back when you were mulling over selling her. As i have said, though i have a lot of respect for facets of your program, it is not because your dogs are v rated or not, because i may or may not agree with what a particular governing body says the dog ought to be, especially when the vision of the breed , in practice, has changed so drastically from the outset. If the vision for the breed was one of a working dog, you would not see breeders tripping over themselves trying to bring out coat, pigment, sex char, roach, etc. The top of your "wish list" would far far different. Some traits are going to fall by the wayside, and common sense tells me it's going to be the ones that aren't as important to achieving VA. I just don't think you can have the "perfect" dog consistently who has it all. Concessions are always made, it's part of imperfection.|
by charlie319 on 06 August 2010 - 23:07
|Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the "perfect" dog does not really exist as perfection is a moving target and its pursuit is more of a death march than a rush to the finish line. The best thing to attempt is a balanced dog with the salient characteristics that are considered important by the breeder, or better yet, the breed steward. That provides a dog that is consistent with the standard and whose variations are not pronounced. While I agree with Sugarbear that corners may be cut to achieve a VA dog, that does not mean that many SL owners support such practice. Same can be said on the WL side. Breeding a top notch GSD will require controling a lot of genetic variances as we begin to meld WL and SL's. As some have stated, it is currently happening, and there is no reason for it to become a practice. I, for one, would love to see a dog that is able to win consistently in both the show ring and the sport field.|
by darylehret on 07 August 2010 - 00:15
|Silbersee, the way you sandwiched the "pony dips" between the content of my website in the preceding sentence and the type of breeding I "envision" in the following sentence, who would ever guess that you weren't referring to my dogs? You are completely spot on with my distaste for the SV, though. Sorry my "negativity" upset you, but justified IMO because the comments about endurance were just too much to not cry "bullshit". Would you care to address the endurance issue, instead of my manners?|
by Felloffher on 07 August 2010 - 00:28
|I think a few of you have some misconceptions about the original intent of the GSD. I have pasted a couple of quotes from Capt. Max below to clear these up.|
"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."
~Captain von Stephanitz
Originator of the breed
"The most striking features of the correctly bred German Shepherd are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity and hardness."
- Max von Stephanitz, Father of the German Shepherd Dog
"A good judge . . . must be free from the narrowness of mind which confines its energies to the discovery of failings, or in biased preferences in relation to physical beauty. . . and he must not be influenced either by the ambition or greed of individuals, nor by the only too often ill-directed whim of the market."
The breed club was formed in 1899 and the fist Sch. club in 1901.
So from these quotes were do you see the current working GSD being lead a stray?
by maywood on 07 August 2010 - 02:50
|What I find amusing is the radical working line folks have no problem finding fault in the showlines but as soon as someone brings up a very real problem in the working lines, up comes the blinders followed by unsupported claims that the problem does not exist. Too funny!|
by charlie319 on 07 August 2010 - 02:58
|I keep finding references of dogs that are "handler" aggressive, and many seem to be on the working-lines, and doubtless because they've been bred towards such behavioral drives.|
My conception of the GSD is that it was a better breed before the split, than after.
The problem in both lines is that they breed for some very narrow and commercial traits. This season, it is dark sables and big blocky heads.... Who knows what the market whims will command them to breed next year.
I understand that some are all about your show or working-line dog and the ego-blinkers won't allow any other concept in, but the thread is not about which line is superior to the other, but about discussing the breeding of Show-line and working-line dogs.
by maywood on 07 August 2010 - 03:19
|I absolutely agree. As I said earlier, I am all for mixing them again. I think both sides are in desperate need of this. As the lines become more and more extreme it is becoming all too obvious.|
by darylehret on 07 August 2010 - 03:41
|I've seen an instance or two of handler aggression, though it's certainly an uncommon trait. I wouldn't condone it in any breed, and it's my belief that it's primarily a learned behavior.|
maywood, what's your experience with workingline dogs? Do you find they tire easily, or are you just quoting something you've read?
Back to crossing the two, I'll ask yet one more time; what is the workingline going to gain that it doesn't already have? If you want to stay on topic, there you have it. Just answer the friggin question! By crossing, you temporarily will lose consistency, and with much diligence that can be overcome, but why in the first place? Or if I put the same question another way; what do you fear to lose from the showline blood? The whole advantage of breeding from a "bloodline" (whatever your goals may be) becomes weakened.
by charlie319 on 07 August 2010 - 04:20
|Well, the whole concept of showline vs workingline is one of those who need to differentiate their product to be able to sell it. Breeders on both sides have used the split to their benetit and the detriment of the breed. If you get down to it, Working lines actually benefited from the infusion of DDR and Czech bloodlines that had been kept separate from West German strains by the Cold War. If I were to have the money to go into a well researched effort at breeding a GSD to its pre-split characteristics, I'd probably try to avoid dogs that were bred to either SL or WL types currently in vogue in the West. The DDR/Czech dogs, although they have their origins in mostly West German stock, are closer to the GSD's of the 1960's.|
As to what the present day SL's can bring to a breeding, the simple fact that it would provide genetic breadth to the breed should be enough. Granted, some may think that SL GSD's are not up to snuff, but there have been crosses between WL and SL dogs that have been successful. Otherwise, the GSD will end up sounding like a Jeff Foxworthy punchline... Where all GSD's are tightly interrelated.
by Jacko on 07 August 2010 - 04:29
|wow still going. My dog is better then your dog, my dog is better then your dog...nanananana.|
Give it a rest. Enjoy what you have.
by darylehret on 07 August 2010 - 04:44
|Or, do we differentiate our bloodlines to identify with the people that wish to buy them?|
Personally, I like the gsd's of the 1910's and 1920's, and rather we could go back to a time well before the "split".
I'm for crossing separate lines, when each is able to offer something in return, and doesn't compromise too much. I like some of the old border patroll ddr/czech crosses that were done, and see further advantage to crossing those with the west german sporting lines. There's your genetic diversity, from three separated working populations.
by Jacko on 07 August 2010 - 05:01
I understand why you did not want to comment on Triumph's Gucci. You have some nice looking sport dogs. I look forward to hearing how they do. There are breeders and "breeders" out there. Too many don't study and learn before they get into making puppies and see $$ signs. They think they can be Karl Fuller over night because they have a V rated dog paired with a VA rated dog etc etc. I hear it from all sides, folks making puppies over "ball drive" WTH. There is you issue if you want to critize.
I will spare the photos of the dog types I prefer doing schutzhund, their scores, and more stories. They are there for all sides because poop happens. I would suggest you take the time to see what is going on with other bloodlines and make your comments based on that. Yep there is some poor bite work at sieger shows and there is some world class too. I guess every dog does not score 100 100 100 every time they go out.
Some of these what you call "show" dogs have their HGH, Show training V rating, then they get the Sch. title, kore report. Anyone who has accomplshed this knows this is a quality all around dog with a lot of time invested . You are right when you say "what else would it need" what could another line bring to it. Just don't dismiss structure in your comments, as it is part of the program.
Thanks for suppporting GSD's with such passion. What I see is different bloodline and types, but they are all German Shepherd Dogs to me. They all have their qualities and opportunites. However, when they all come together we get some very special dogs to see, hear and read about.
by Gustav on 07 August 2010 - 12:23
|If showlines had been linebred/inbred on the Lierbergs or Mutz v Peltzierferm for the past thirty five years, I think you would probably see less of a reluctance for working people to mix the lines, JMO.|
by darylehret on 07 August 2010 - 17:02
Can you point me the way? Who do you think really stands out, that might change a workingline breeder's perceptions?
by Jacko on 07 August 2010 - 18:47
|to your point in an earlier post. You have never looked. I would start there. I am not suggesting you change, but expand your experience in seeing what is out there. Just take a look. I am sure you will laugh at some and be impressed by others. |
Enjoy you dogs!
by darylehret on 08 August 2010 - 01:40
|Start where!? All the videos I've seen do not impress. Show me where these world class performances are at the siegers, give me some names. I'm not at all being hardheaded, but you're being awefully vague.|