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German Shepherd Dog > showline bred with workingline (440 replies)

by Rik on 10 August 2010 - 13:08

Posts: 2197
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 03:41 am
dayrle, I have read your posts and I think you have made a few valid points. This is a worth while thread and I am very interested in hearing from knowledgeable and experienced people as to why they would do this, why they would not do this or they did this and here are the results.

But inevitably, these kind of threads turn into whizzing contests, with people treating others as if they are stupid, their dogs are crap, their training is crap, their vision of the GSD is crap.

As far as breeding/buying, I have absolutely no interest in breeding. For approx. $5000, I can send my V rated kkl1 bitch to Germany for breeding. Maybe she takes, maybe not. Maybe she produces well, maybe not. For half that price, plus traveling expenses, I can buy a pup that I know meets my expectations, that someone else has taken the chances on.

But in the end, while some have a never ending list of excuses for not doing things the correct way, there are others out there producing dogs such as this one.

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/492746.html

A V21 placing at the sieger would qualify any dog as a "show" dog.

Best,
Rik

by Gustav on 10 August 2010 - 14:08

Posts: 2530
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:47 am
Just want to weigh in on some comments that don't depict the whole picture, IMO. Marko, Mutz Canto and Quanto were pillars of the "showring in the mid seventies. As the color requirement for winning changed Marko, then eventually Mutz were no longer primary parts of the show world. There are some workinglines that are offshoots of these two dogs.(Marko and Mutz).  But there are many many more workinglines(German), that don't go through Marko or Mutz. There are NO current showlines that don't go through Canto/Quanto. Also, its not that Quanto or Canto themselves were terrible dogs,(for the truly knowledgable, why didn't Canto go VA), its the insane continued breeding back and forth to these same dogs for thirty five years WITHOUT bringing in the blood of the otherlines that has created a genetic saturation that is detrimental to the breed. The people in France who used Canto/Quanto in their dogs also have CONTINUALLY mixed strong working lines in the equation so this type of saturation has not happened and lo and behold these dogs work at a top level. This isn't complicated people, but as long as we don't focus on the real issues the situation will remain. Look at the coefficient of breeding on certain lines and you will began to see the picture. The heck with opinions deal with facts, look at the coefficient of breeding on great working dogs of the past twenty five years and you will see a distinct pattern. This isn't feelings or opinions this is fact. France's approach to using all the lines "continually" is better suited to work if you want to mix the lines. You can't mix a showline with a workingline, pick a good specimen and then go back to showlines again and get balance or genetic diversity. This is often what people do. Its about balance, and right now the balance is lacking and until there is more balance then the extremes will continue. 

by Silbersee on 10 August 2010 - 15:08

Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 07:30 pm
Gustav, you are absolutely right.
But I spent the past hour or so looking at Jeff Oehlsen's dog which is this one (correct Jeff?): www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/669849.html . Now, I only had half the pedigree to work with since the sire line is an unknown. I do not want to go onto the working-dog.eu website right now, because there is a thread going on on the German working forum that it passes on viruses. A lot of people with IE had a total crash of their harddrives after visiting that site. So, I am going to wait a few days until it is clear again. Jeff needs to come on here and say if that pedigree is accurate or not which is often not the case here. One line that can't be right is the one behind Nory D'Echalon, out of Juran vom Wildsteiger Land and Quina Arminius (sister to the famous showline VA-1 Quando von Arminius). The whelping years do not match. So, I ignored that part of the pedigree as well.
Now Jeff, you think that Canto and Quanto do not play any role in your dog's lines. And based on this pedigree I am telling you that you are dead wrong. I counted Canto von der Wienerau 23 times on half of your dog's pedigree and Quanto von der Wienerau 11 times. Now granted that I might have miscalculated a couple of times (I do not have the patience and time today to do over it again), that is a lot of inbreeding. Gustav, do you have time to calculate the inbreeding coefficient?
Jeff, I learned a lot about these French lines and I wanted to thank you for that. Apparantly two prominent kennels - du Val des Hurles Vent and de Gerbe de Grenval based their whole lines on Walter Martin's old Wienerau dogs. To name a few:  VA-Sam, VA-Reza, V-Xando, V-Luno (who is a sibling to the famous L-litter) and the great Dixie obviously was exported to France after Walter was done with her. Marko Cellerland only appeared 3 times in the half pedigree and Mutz 5 times. That leaves room for one conclusion (and Gustav, please correct me if I am wrong) that these French ring lines genetically have much more in common with the German showlines than the workinglines and/or East German or Czech lines. Jeff, the mother of your dog has two outcrosses in her pedigree: Yoschy vd Doellenwiese and Aly v Vordersteinwald (sire of Mazurka). So, that pedigree is definitely a mix.
That is why I do not understand why people scream foul when breeders want to mix lines, show or working, Czech or working, etc.. Yes, there is not much to expect in the first or even second generation, but patience and persistence is a virtue.
Now, at this point I feel the need to mention the famous glasshouse again, you know what not to do when you are in it. No cussing, please!
Peace, Chris

by Silbersee on 10 August 2010 - 16:08

Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 07:30 pm
Gustav,
you are right that Quanto and Canto were great dogs.
Look at Quanto Wienerau who could still compete in the show ring today: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/77.html . It is not a surprise that he is called the father of the modern showline. To me, he looks ideal. Nowadays showlines need to go back to his structure - more moderation of angulation, better topline!
Canto Wienerau is closely related to him through the L-litter Wienerau: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/141.html but his fighting drive was only sufficient in his breed survey. After his V-1 appearance at the 1971 Sieger Show, he was resurveyed with better results. It is said that both his parents were dogs with "less than ideal" temperament and that he passed it on. He was a hemophiliac and died young. His only litterbrother was stillborn because of that.  So, his daughters were obvious hemophiliac carriers - I wonder how many problems they had with that in the French lines? The modern lines escaped that because he is most notably present in the male descendant line which did not pass it on (Argus/Asslan Klaemmle, Canto Arminius, Yago Baiertalstrasse etc.) and so did his daughter Flora Koenigsbruch's decendants (obvious carrier but her sons Nick vd Wienerau and Reza v Haus Beck were not hemophiliacs - Flora to me is one of the nicest females ever to exist). Canto produced about 400 offspring before dying young but he certainly did have an impact.
You asked why he did not go VA? He supposedly was quite cowhocked and loose in his hocks (due to his angulation). His breed survey report also stated that his fighting drive was only sufficient which was rectified later in his resurvey.
These two dogs are to "blame" for the split of workinglines and showlines. Showline breeders concentrated heavily on Canto and Quanto, workingline breeders shunned them and stayed with Marko and a little bit of Mutz and of course, the famous B-litter (and repeats) Lierberg, the all important difference. All have Vello vd Sieben-Faulen in their pedigrees, but showlines connect to him through his son Jalk Fohlenbrunnen and workingline breeders through the Lierberg breedings - to simplify. 
Hope that is not too abreviated, I have no time and I am not at home to look things up.
Regards, Chris

by Steve Schuler on 10 August 2010 - 16:08

Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 04:20 am
Nice Post Gustav!

In your last sentence in your comment you said, "Its about balance, and right now the balance is lacking and until there is more balance then the extremes will continue."  Although I lack a great deal of knowledge about, and experience with, German Shepherd breeding, this is a notion that I have encountered again and again voiced by people who seem to be very knowledgable and well experienced in the breed.  I also noticed that you specified "workinglines(German)" which implicitly acknowledges workinglines other than German.

Hans Blabla, in addressing what temperamental characteristics he values in German Shepherds on a current topic about Czech dogs said, "We care in temperament about inherited: prey, courage, protectiveness, intelligence , train ability and willingness to please, investigativnes and alertness, territoriality, early workability, longevity of workability, and general versatility and discriminativness and some others."  Which I think is a pretty good summation of what most people would agree are essential temperamental traits to be pursued as breeding goals.  However a breeder chooses to acheive these goals, whether by out-crossing or not, deserves my encouragement and respect.

SteveO

PS

Thanks to all who have made thoughtful contributions to this topic.

by darylehret on 10 August 2010 - 16:08

Posts: 2671
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 06:58 am
Oh great!  Jeff's dog is the one of the two dogs I'm considering.  Suppose that makes me a hypocrite ;-)

by Gustav on 10 August 2010 - 17:08

Posts: 2530
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:47 am
Chris, you are correct about Quanto who I thought was the better dog. I remember Assalan v Klamme, when he was being shown in the states and he was a soft dog though he was Sch 3. He also produced soft. I think another reason Canto didn't go VA was because of his mother Zilly.
In the seventies you had some nice Quanto/Canto mixes with Mutz and Marko and even some Bernd and Busecker Scloss. They just stayed at the trough too long for my taste. I had a daughter out of Arras v Haus Helma that was out of Canto and Quanto. Fabulous temperament but she also had Lierberg in the pedigree. This was 1980. As a very successful showline breeder(I knew your dog Sam and had great respect for his work ethic), Its people like yourself who have brought genetic diversity in your lines that will persuade others to open up. Good Luck.

by Jeff Oehlsen on 10 August 2010 - 17:08

Posts: 1667
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 02:16 am
 Quote: Also, let’s try to cut out the swearing if you’re smart enough to do that. This is not the place to be setting yourself free with such antics. There could potentially be ladies and children reading this crap. Do you have any civilized manners or thoughts for other peoples? You should be ashamed of yourself, but I know guys like you feel no shame.

How about you blow me. You smart enough to know what that means ? I don't care if a dog breaks. and men that don't curse are pussies. How about that. Don't ever tell me how to speak. Bad enough you know fuck all about training dogs or road work, but you don't tell me how to speak, or that you imagine that their might be a child on here. Reading what, dumb ass ? THere are like two people on here that have a clue about anything dog related. The rest is just trash and you try and scold me ? Piss OFF.


Quote: Canto Wienerau is closely related to him through the L-litter Wienerau: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/141.html but his fighting drive was only sufficient in his breed survey. After his V-1 appearance at the 1971 Sieger Show, he was resurveyed with better results. It is said that both his parents were dogs with "less than ideal" temperament and that he passed it on

Love the history lesson, but lets face it, they actually had standards back then. For the past 30 some odd years they have degraded those standards rediculously.

If I were to somehow able to go back in time and snatch Canto as an adult and bring him into this time, He would be used without complaint. Can you imagine what that judge would say about the dogs of this era ? So the history lesson is cute and all, but worthless as far as influence on a dog. It was almost 40 years ago you are talking about.



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