German Shepherd Dog > showline bred with workingline (440 replies)
by Rik on 15 October 2010 - 12:41
|Back OT. If you feel you have a sound plan, good dogs and a clear goal, then go for it. You will never accomplish anything listening to a bunch of talking heads telling you what you can't do.|
by charlie319 on 15 October 2010 - 14:27
|Adam: I chose Laika because I have personally seen her and know that she has good drives & conformation and is currently undergoing SchH training. I certainly did not want to load up the dice and trot out some uber-siegerin, but a specimen that is in line with what I proposed. BTW, you said nothing of the male I proposed as a hypothetical mate. Ha,ha,ha,ha¿ To say that ¿Truimph is more in line, however many W/L studs have similar structure¿ is not out of line with what I have grown to expect from those who think that there is no room in the breed for anything but whichever line they propose. Just because one is not ¿on board¿ that WL dogs are the most, if not the only, correct, it doesn¿t mean that one has an absolutist point of view against all WL's. You, however, stated that you wanted a SL dog, so I got a prototypical two-time universal sieger. BTW, if you look it up, you will see that the Universal Sieger title was also won by some WL dogs. I found your choice of VYBORNY Pluto z Pohranicni straze most amusing since not only does he back out on his father¿s line to Rolf vom Osnabrücker Land, but Rolf appears a few times on his pedigree, as well as a US Sieger. In other words, your working lines dog is essentially developed out of showlines ancestors by way of DDR & Czech breeders whose interest was not the breed standard, but breeding border guard and other police duty dogs. IMPO, many are fine looking dogs, and as I¿ve stated before, should compete in the SL ring but for the stupid discrimination on color practiced by the SL judges. However, as in anything else, many WL breeders tend to focus on the ¿trait du jour¿ (Big heads, dark sables) in order to keep the cash coming and are headed to the same situation that plagues the SL¿s. To breed WL¿s to SL¿s is not a proposition to be undertaken without much consideration and care. Commercial breeders are more intent on improving their bottom line than improving the breed and it will take someone more committed to the breed than his own pocket to take on such an endeavor. Jeff: Much as I find your musings entertaining, and I do respect your knowledge in some areas, you missed this one. I don¿t refer to Preston as logical and clear headed because I¿m in agreement with him, but because he refrains from some of the behavior some here (me included) exhibit.|
by Felloffher on 15 October 2010 - 17:05
What more would you like me to say about Truimph? Confirmation isn't on the top of my list when selecting a dog, health and working ability are. There will always be breeders on both sides of the coin breeding for cash and looks (people are greedy). You have your opinion, I have mine and I bet the only thing we can agree on regarding this topic is that we don't agree.LOL. No hard feelings on my part, I tend to enjoy a heated debate.
by charlie319 on 15 October 2010 - 17:49
|I too enjoy a good energetic debate and don't hold it as personal. Just because I disagree with some of the points put forth by WL owners/breeders, it does not mean that I'm against WL's. A lot of WL's owners seem to think that is the case. BTW, in researching on another topic I came across this kennel. I do like the dogs they have: http://www.tjaernshaget.de/|
by Red Sable on 15 October 2010 - 18:38
This is why the V conformation means nothing to me, nor do I want a WL with V conformation.
by SouthernLove on 17 October 2010 - 06:29
|ooh thats ma girl right there. talkin bout Red Sable!! mmmmmm|
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 October 2010 - 07:01
| Quote: Jeff: Much as I find your musings entertaining, and I do respect your knowledge in some areas, you missed this one. I don¿t refer to Preston as logical and clear headed because I¿m in agreement with him, but because he refrains from some of the behavior some here (me included) exhibit.|
I could care less about behavior, just as long as they are trying to make a point.
I have been around enough to know that most people that breed are guessing at best. I will be doing a breeding soon, if everything works out right, and it is a guess. I do not know the french dogs, but I know what the dog I will be breeding to is, and I know the pedigree of the female, and what she is. It may very well turn out a bunch of doorknobs, but that is a chance I am going to take. I hope to bring a female here with a lot of FR3 dogs in her pedigree as well. The female I am using has a lot of knucklehead Sch3 dogs, and she certainly is a knucklehead herself. However, she does not have the high thresholds that so many dogs have. I can hide a soft sleeve and bust it out when she is just out to go to the bathroom and she will run over and it is on. She does not have that training, so that makes me even more positive that I might get what I want. She was a SAR dog. We will see, like I said, it is a guess in many ways.
I see the show line crossed into the Czech stuff here and there, but we do not see the whole picture. Most of the time that i have seen it, it is a one time deal, and we do not get to see what gets tossed from the litters afterwards. I have never seen anyone that actually knew the dog discuss why it was added to the program. My best guess has nothing to do with "structure" more likely it was a dog that had aggression. I am not always a big fan of the Czech dogs. Some are really nice, of course, but I have seen my share of duds more often than not. Some have either melted because they cannot deal with the work load in ring, and their aggression, or as I see it, their nerve gets in the way, or their aggression, because with the added pressure, they either do not out, or they release and go after the decoy in an attempt to get him to quit the pressure. I saw that in Rotts and hated that. I am sure that people will really like that, but the dogs released, gave it a shot, and would not re engage. Again, useless.
I also do not see people when discussing show line breedings talking about the dogs drive, character, or work. They will say he is a Sch3 but how many of us have seen Sch3 show dogs and wondered how they ever got the title ?
I understand the split, I even get how it occurred on the show side, as you breed for what the judges want to see. The problem is that it is one side of a many sided coin. I do see people throwing in a show dog here and there, but again, it is three four generations back. Occasionally I could see that if it was a good working dog, and passed that. I cannot think of my one example, Uwe maybe kirshental ? My brain is not really wanting to help me out here. That was a dog that passed working traits. You can see him quite often.
However, I see show people trying to crank up their dogs more often than I see working people finding a really nice example of show dog that works. Most of what I see is show people trying to infest the world with their "look" : )
Maybe when people start pointing out a dog that actually does work, and has not been dead for 20 30 years, I will pay more attention. I just do not see that.
by gsdsch3v on 29 October 2010 - 07:20
by charlie319 on 29 October 2010 - 14:29
|Jeff: The fact that you don't care about behavior is one of the things that makes you amusing and somewhat endearing... I agree that even the most knowledgeable breeders are basically just cutting down on the uncertainties that are inherent in breeding two animals. SL's are found in Czech dogs because, they are GSD's, not CzSD's. Most Cz dogs have a west geran origin. As a matter of fact, so do most DDR dogs. When I look at a dog, I don't just look at it as far as "drive, character, or work", I like to look at the whole dog and its intended use/environment. I know what you're saying as I've seen dogs who appear to have gotten their titles in a "Cracker-Jack-Box". I don't know about Show-Lines People or Working Lines people being any different, since it used to be GSD people. I also could care less about the status of a dog's color, but any trait taken to the extreme is deleterious to the breed. Your knucklehead dog may be a good example of a dog bred for a trait to a fault. By the same token, BOTH lines are at fault in the genetic bottleneck they've caused. Look up the recent Universal Sieger competitions for show-line dogs that can "work".|
by smith on 11 November 2010 - 02:49
by Pretorian on 12 November 2010 - 09:57
|Why does it come to this always. I mean somebody starts a brilliant thread, then suddenly after a lengthy disccusion...i am sorry i CAN'T say that it was an healthy discussion considering the language and the way the points have been put accross. IT JUST STOPS.|
I wish through after using up 22 pages on the database we could have got somewhere. "POOF" Nada!!!
From whatever i have read my understanding of a German Shepherd is, a dog of complete balance when it comes to its appearance and its temperament. When i say this. I do agree that there are SOME "SL" that have weak nerves, but at the same time...there are a few "WL" dogs which are ticking time bombs.
For what its worth, i would like to see some more dogs that are a fine combination of a WL and SL dog. I am absolutely sure that there are responsible breeders who would and are doing something on the same.
All the best. TC
by smith on 13 December 2010 - 04:52
by eichenluft on 13 December 2010 - 06:58
|Since this thread has been bumped - I have bred a couple show X working line litters and have been very pleased with them. I like the combination for good looking dogs with good temperaments, good drive levels and good structure/bone, good pigment, - they have plenty of temperament and drive to do whatever work the owner chooses to do with the dog, and are still calm enough to be awesome family companions.|
In fact I have a new show X working litter - Working-line V-Bandit v Wolfsheim Schh3,FH,KKl-1,a-normal X show-line V-Oxana v Lastal Schh3,FH,KKl-1,a-normal. Oxana is a large, strong looking female who is very nice in the work with supurb temperament. Puppies are beautiful, dark black and red and red sable.
by Jyl on 13 December 2010 - 08:00
|I too like the showline/workingline crosses. The ones that I have seen have been very nice. My male that I have now is mostly showline with some DDR mixed in. He has good drives in all 3 phases. The 6 week old litter that I have now is a combo of showline and workingline (Czech).|
by Jeff Oehlsen on 13 December 2010 - 08:17
| So you turn the thread into an ad ? LOL |
Quote: Why does it come to this always. I mean somebody starts a brilliant thread, then suddenly after a lengthy disccusion...i am sorry i CAN'T say that it was an healthy discussion considering the language and the way the points have been put accross.
So what is it you are trying to say ? You are confused as once someone has used the word ****, your brain shuts down as it cannot believe that the word was used ? Is that it ? Or, was it that people did not speak the way that you want them to, and how they got their point across was not to your liking ?
So I take it that after 22 pages, you learned absolutely nothing from this thread, as there were curse words like **** or whatever, AND that people have a strong opinion about things and did not show peace and love ?
Of course a thread like this is going to go up in smoke. They always will. The best showdog I have seen working in the last ten years was mediocre at best. For me, breeding mediocre is wrong no matter what, and I am discussing things and my opinion is that breeding to crap for the sake of pretty is retarded. I will argue my point, knowing that I will not change one fucking thing as far as what people think.
Look at graf, she knows the money is in the show dogs, and so she is going to try and incorporate that into her business, and slowly head towards the show dogs. Why breed dogs that you can get 1 dollar for, when you can breed dogs and get 3 dollars for them, and they are easier to keep, as they are doorknobs ?
Working line breeders that breed for stronger dogs are going to get a ****load of them back, as people always want Godzirra, until the little lizard shows up at the airport, sees that they are a little bitch and starts handing them their ass from there. There are collectors out there that want a dog from ________ just so that they can say that they have a pup out of that dog. They won't train it, most of them do not, most people on here do not train their dogs, but love to talk like they do. It is always how it is. People like the "idea" of training, and owning Godzirra, but the reality is the dog will live in a kennel, or get sent back. LOL
Quote: BOTH lines are at fault in the genetic bottleneck they've caused.
Myth and bullshit are called on the genetic bottleneck. I hear that from statisticians and people that do not breed.
|Edited by zmoderator on Mon Dec 13, 2010 03:12 pm :: |
by bazza on 13 December 2010 - 08:46
|Speaking of doorKNOBS....... Merry Christmas.|
by eichenluft on 13 December 2010 - 13:51
|Moderator? Personal attacks or whatever - both Jeff and Daryl are typical "internet bullies" - BOTH of whom have never done anything impressive (or even anything "noteworthy") with any dog, any litter, in any venue. They do like to talk "big" on the internet though, that's for sure.|
I'm very sure that anyone who owns one of my dogs, or plans on getting one, are extremely happy with their choice of breeder and dog.
by zmoderator on 13 December 2010 - 16:47
|PLEASE NOTE: THREAD CLOSED.|
by ALPHAPUP on 15 December 2010 - 17:11
|WOOOOOOW.. i don't think i ever read a thread with so many pages !! A lot of emeotions and words here.. two quick commments . i think on page 5 there was a question about HGH / Sch tilted show dogs.. WELL ... there was another GSD SHOW LINE that not only got HGH Title [ trained by Ulf kintzel for my good friend ...i might add ] but also got after having attained Sch 3 title , V2 at [? year] Seiger Show in Germany .. Made History as the First American bred GSD to obtain the rating of V2 in Seiger show in Germany !!*** . i believe he went V1 at the NASS too . his name Galaxy [ Galaxy von Ajaye]. .. owned by on this forum known as Sunshine.. Eukenuba recruited him for one of their videos too if i am correct . point #2 point .. everybody is all wound up about the S xW ... first .. what is " the defintion of WORK " .. although my sxw cross from Fado Karthago progeny was ready at 10 months ... yes 10 months to present in a police demo , i would not expect this of either s, w , sxw GSD .. the behavioral traits we seek for all kinds of work ... are different.. i would not desire that dog for S & R , or bomb detection .. .. ther behavioral traits are different .. we need to compare apples to apples and grapes to grapes !! so the word 'work ' is to much a generality to utilize as a criteria for the GSD !! we need talk specifics .. same about HGH [herding innate abilities] , not the ALL , maybe some , similar attributes i would desire in my GSD for police tasks. !! e.gthe traits, high harness and high aggression [ high motivation to bite or kill instinct]. , innately that is to say !!........ last point .. i would empirically say : the current day breeding practices have softened the GSD ..i think a very well agreed upon fact to the versed... BUT not to many years ago .. you have had some firecracker SHOW LINE GSDs .. i know . i have had about 25 VA Germany progeny . my Odin Tanenmiese progeny weree firecrackers , my Fanto Hirshel grandaughter [ french ring worker ] , Lasso Neuenberg/ Jeck Noricum progeny [Sch / French ring/ personal protection ] , my Yasko Farbenspiel and Larus v Batu sons [ did some french ring, BOTH balanced well in prey /defense !!]- Ursus had recently thrown quite a number very good working/protection dogs !! some of the Show line ' good working blood ' still exists... Now i do not take anything away from the working lines too !!.... same feature .. can't knock all there conformation .. some lines do have very very nice structure not to be readily dismissed. .. HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL ON THE PDB .. AP|
by Rico on 23 December 2010 - 11:54
|An outstanding combination BORN OUT workingline and showline is |
LUBECK VON DER MAHLER-MEISTER.
HIS MOTHER HAS PH 1 AND HIS FATHER PH2. (DUTCH POLICEDOG CERTIFICATES).
SEE THE INFORMATION ON LUBECK ON PEDIGREEDATABASE AND IF YOU WANT TO SEE SOME BITEWORD AT THE EXAMINATION PH1 OF LUBECK SEE THE VIDEOS ON YOUTUBE.